Seemingly enhanced/altered Harry Truman signed baseball featured on haulsofshame.com

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Steve, is there any connection between Autograph Magazine (published by Steve Cyrkin), and Collectors Universe?

Originally Posted by travrosty

no one is home so i will answer.

cyrkin was one of the founder of pcgs, and collectors universe, he invested 10,000 dollars for 10 percent of pcgs, the coin grading company, and ultimate ended up with over a million shares of stock (about 5 percent) in collectors universe stock when it brought in pcgs. He goes out of his way for no one to know this. no one is suppose to know. He wants people to think he is impartial, and in order to blog on autograph magazine live you have to follow the company line or you are out. Thus the PSA defenders who wants to keep their blogging card there and stay in his good graces.

Steve Z. was one of the biggest psa critics (read his old articles) until he had a road to Damascus conversion somehow. But PSA/DNA hasn't changed their stripes one bit along the way. Why are they the best thing since sliced bread now, but back then they were the object of his derision? I don't know.

Amazing! Thanks Travis! I had no real reason for asking except this: I could never figure out why those two guys will never utter a bad word about PSA. The only other thing the two seem to have in common is blogging for Cyrkin's Autograph Magazine Live. So I wondered if there could be a connection...

Ain't critical thinking wonderful?

[travrosty]

yes, and i give footnotes and examples so they can't say I am making stuff up. They hate that.


The truman ball, according to haulsofshame, was listed by eac galleries as pristine, and "finest example extant"

The meaning of the word pristine is:

original, pure, uncorrupted, untouched, unspoiled.

this is exactly the opposite of what it was.

obviously listing it as pristine was not a "mistake" by a few bumbling people who didnt know sports because they were primarily a historical auction house.


a harry truman signature IS a historical signature.

there is more to this story, there has to be. i find it hard to believe someone would clean up the ball, enhance it and then send it off to an auction house, and not do that to any other pieces. a one-off? unlikely.


but i have never seen any other balls or signatures offered at auction houses or anywhere else listed as "restored", so are they being foisted off on the general public as pristine, and finest examples? looks like a good case for the fbi.

there are a lot of people that want haulsofshame.com to go away. that site is digging too deep in areas that are deemed "off limits" by the old guard who want to keep their power, prestige, and money making abilities the same way they are now. they want the status quo.

Indicting Mastro was looking in the wrong area for these people. the 10 dollar mickey mantles is where we should look, not the petty offenses by this big company or that one. They are supposedly "cleaning up the hobby" so they are entitled to a few infractions if it makes the hobby safer for everyone? because without them, we would have the wild west. Well, guess what, we have the wild west WITH THEM!

We can't even keep up with just the boxing mistakes. It's incredibly unbelievable! Just think about basketball, football where there are no people who come forward and show just how they are handling those sports in the autograph arena. I have had people say, "well, i guess they need a little work on boxing, but they are good at the rest."

but if my specialty and mark's specialty was football instead, then they would just need work on football and they would be great at boxing I suppose.

well, we just happen to expose the sport that we know well. Other sports go unreported but would the results be different?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Amazing! Thanks Travis! I had no real reason for asking except this: I could never figure out why those two guys will never utter a bad word about PSA. The only other thing the two seem to have in common is blogging for Cyrkin's Autograph Magazine Live. So I wondered if there could be a connection...

Ain't critical thinking wonderful?

If Atkatz is referring to Mr. Zipper and me as the "two guys" then, of course, I can only answer for myself.

You're right, Travis and Atkatz, I will not bash PSA. I've had the same agenda for over eight (8) years now and have never deviated from it. I have my own agenda, and despite the threats, and attempts at intimidation over the past eight years, I have continued without interruption. I would never allow anyone who threatens me or attempts to intimidate me, to stop me from doing what I do.

I have no reason to bash PSA. Why should I bash a company that gets it right well over 95% of the time? If Travis and Atkatz want to bash PSA, that's their right. Neither of you have been censored here, have you? You may have been criticized for your views and opinions, but haven't we all? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Getting back to PSA. Honest mistakes are made by human beings. I don't know of one honest authenticator who hasn't made an honest mistake. The mistakes may have been clerical or an honest authentication mistake.

If anyone on Net54 wants to criticize PSA that is their right. But at the same time, the same people who criticize PSA, also flock to PSA to get their items graded or authenticated to receive a higher premium when it comes time to sell.

Why don't we ask Travis why he never bashes Todd Mueller?

Travis, is it because "you have no reason" to bash Todd Mueller? If that's your reason, then I accept that, Travis. I have "no reason" to bash PSA. When "LoveTheMarlins" was exposing some of the forgeries on the now "Dead As Julius Caesar" old ANL site, no one heard a peep from Travis criticizing Todd Mueller. If those same items had been authenticated by PSA, Travis would have been all over it. As a matter of fact, Travis went out his way to defend Todd and the Willie Mays TTM wife-signed autograph that Todd had listed on his auction site as an "authentic Willie Mays signed card." And not a peep from Travis about the two (2) Phil Dorsey signed Roberto Clemente photos that Todd Mueller had listed as "authentic signed Roberto Clemente photograph" or that Walter Johnson signed garbage.

Travis, if you have "no reason" to bash Todd Mueller, then I accept that. But don't criticize me for not bashing PSA because I have "no reason" to also. I have had the same agenda for over eight years. You have your agenda and I have mine.


David once (or still does) owned a "1927 NY Yankees" signed baseball that was certed by JSA. He proudly posted photos of his JSA certed baseball and his own self-proclamation as a "Yankees vintage autograph expert." In addition, David announced his own "Quick Opinion" service on Net54 because of his self-proclaimed expertise on Yankees vintage autographs.

Then David discovered his JSA certed "1927 Yankees" signed baseball was a JF special. I knew it was a JF special when David sent me full-blown photos of this baseball. I am sure that David asked Jodi to confirm that his ball was not authentic. But then David starts ranting against JSA for his ball being bad, but as a self-proclaimed "Yankees vintage autograph expert," how is it that you (David) never discovered it was bad? I was well aware of JF team-signed baseballs, why weren't you? Instead of looking in the mirror, you blame JSA and start ranting against them.

Then David went out and purchased an authentic "1927 Yankees" team-signed baseball. He also informed us that he needed to sell some other items in order to finance his "new" baseball. And guess what. The items he listed on Ebay were either PSA or JSA authenticated. But wait, David, what about your rants against PSA and JSA? Why would you insert PSA/JSA in your title descriptions to promote the fact that they are PSA/JSA authenticated to sell your autographed baseballs, when from the other side of your mouth you're ripping both PSA and JSA?

Richard Simon and I are very good friends; we have opposing views when it comes to PSA. We always agreed to disagree. But we would never disparage each other to get our points across. I would hope that all of us can have that same respectful co-existence here.

The point I am making is that we can all co-exist on a peaceful level here on Net54 without the disparaging remarks, double-standards and hypocrisy.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Instead of looking in the mirror, you blame JSA and start ranting against them.

Chris, does this sound like a rant against JSA? (From thread http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=146088 (1927 Yankees team ball forgery), which I started. Find one post of mine in which I "rant" against JSA regarding this baseball--or one in which I don't take full responsibility for being fooled.

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I have always been one to admit my mistakes. (I learned as a physics professor that a mistake is a "teachable moment.") One of the centerpieces of my vintage Yankee collection is, indeed, a forgery--one that fooled me, and James Spence as well. It sure is nice work, though. (Maybe I'll consign it to Coach's. )

[David Atkatz]

Once again, from the same thread. Sound like "a rant against JSA"?

Originally Posted by mr2686

First off, I'm not trying to be a smart-ass with the following, but am really curious to what other's think. What I'm wondering is this - On this thread I've read that the ball would not pass now because 3rd party authenticators have become aware and have learned from their previous mistake. On past threads over the last few months, 3rd party authenticators have been bashed for making constant stupid mistakes, obviously unable or unwilling to learn. So what do we think:
1. TPA's are pretty good but make mistakes like everyone else?
2. TPA's have become too big and too busy to give each individual item their due?
3. TPA's are becoming Morales types and blanket authenticating?
4. Are TPA's leaning more and more to passing items that they should be
giving "no opinion" to?

Any thoughts?

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

1, 2, and 4.
1) PSA and JSA are "pretty good." They are nowhere near as good, however, as they advertise themselves to be--but what product is? Everybody makes mistakes--it's part of being human. the problem, however, is that the TPAs would have us trust them implicitly, while at the same time indemnifying themselves against all liability and responsibility for their mistakes.
2) Often we see mistakes that just should not have been made. Pure carelessness is the most likely explanation.
4) We see far too many instances of items being passed when no--or too few--actual exemplars exist.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

If Atkatz is referring to Mr. Zipper and me as the "two guys" then, of course, I can only answer for myself.

You're right, Travis and Atkatz, I will not bash PSA. I've had the same agenda for over eight (8) years now and have never deviated from it. I have my own agenda, and despite the threats, and attempts at intimidation over the past eight years, I have continued without interruption. I would never allow anyone who threatens me or attempts to intimidate me, to stop me from doing what I do.

I have no reason to bash PSA. Why should I bash a company that gets it right well over 95% of the time? If Travis and Atkatz want to bash PSA, that's their right. Neither of you have been censored here, have you? You may have been criticized for your views and opinions, but haven't we all? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Getting back to PSA. Honest mistakes are made by human beings. I don't know of one honest authenticator who hasn't made an honest mistake. The mistakes may have been clerical or an honest authentication mistake.

If anyone on Net54 wants to criticize PSA that is their right. But at the same time, the same people who criticize PSA, also flock to PSA to get their items graded or authenticated to receive a higher premium when it comes time to sell.

Why don't we ask Travis why he never bashes Todd Mueller?

Travis, is it because "you have no reason" to bash Todd Mueller? If that's your reason, then I accept that, Travis. I have "no reason" to bash PSA. When "LoveTheMarlins" was exposing some of the forgeries on the now "Dead As Julius Caesar" old ANL site, no one heard a peep from Travis criticizing Todd Mueller. If those same items had been authenticated by PSA, Travis would have been all over it. As a matter of fact, Travis went out his way to defend Todd and the Willie Mays TTM wife-signed autograph that Todd had listed on his auction site as an "authentic Willie Mays signed card." And not a peep from Travis about the two (2) Phil Dorsey signed Roberto Clemente photos that Todd Mueller had listed as "authentic signed Roberto Clemente photograph" or that Walter Johnson signed garbage.

Travis, if you have "no reason" to bash Todd Mueller, then I accept that. But don't criticize me for not bashing PSA because I have "no reason" to also. I have had the same agenda for over eight years. You have your agenda and I have mine.


David once (or still does) owned a "1927 NY Yankees" signed baseball that was certed by JSA. He proudly posted photos of his JSA certed baseball and his own self-proclamation as a "Yankees vintage autograph expert." In addition, David announced his own "Quick Opinion" service on Net54 because of his self-proclaimed expertise on Yankees vintage autographs.

Then David discovered his JSA certed "1927 Yankees" signed baseball was a JF special. I knew it was a JF special when David sent me full-blown photos of this baseball. I am sure that David asked Jodi to confirm that his ball was not authentic. But then David starts ranting against JSA for his ball being bad, but as a self-proclaimed "Yankees vintage autograph expert," how is it that you (David) never discovered it was bad? I was well aware of JF team-signed baseballs, why weren't you? Instead of looking in the mirror, you blame JSA and start ranting against them.

Then David went out and purchased an authentic "1927 Yankees" team-signed baseball. He also informed us that he needed to sell some other items in order to finance his "new" baseball. And guess what. The items he listed on Ebay were either PSA or JSA authenticated. But wait, David, what about your rants against PSA and JSA? Why would you insert PSA/JSA in your title descriptions to promote the fact that they are PSA/JSA authenticated to sell your autographed baseballs, when from the other side of your mouth you're ripping both PSA and JSA?

Richard Simon and I are very good friends; we have opposing views when it comes to PSA. We always agreed to disagree. But we would never disparage each other to get our points across. I would hope that all of us can have that same respectful co-existence here.

The point I am making is that we can all co-exist on a peaceful level here on Net54 without the disparaging remarks, double-standards and hypocrisy.

firstly, quit lying about the willie mays signed card, you know it's not true. He is a dealer and not a third party authenticator and doesn't authenticate other peoples autographs for money.

secondly, i never mentioned you at all, you flatter yourself.

thirdly, get the company line right, it's only one mistake out of 1000 (.1%), or as John R. says, 1 out of 10,000 (.01%)

5% error rate stinks. and they are the worlds experts? Mueller challenged any authenticator to a contest, winner take all, he got no takers from the worlds experts. I could clean their clock on boxing, why are they the world's boxing experts again?

fourthly, many, many of their errors are not clerical or honest mistakes, they are the product of authenticating too fast, sending the wrong person to authenticate the wrong autograph, conflicts of interest, and just general apathy towards being meticulous and getting it right.

fifthly, did you see the signed boxing glove that was just auctioned off at hugginsandscott.com for 2100 dollars. It had two Marciano signatures on it, and those are unlike any we have any seen, but signed off by joe orlando on a coa. Would you trust his opinion on this piece?

What makes them experts? Can anyone explain that? Mastro pushed for them and pumped up their credentials and that is how they got started, but tell me why they are good?


It is unbelievable, and you can find no criticism of this pathetic Marciano? Quit authenticating boxing, PSA!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by travrosty

firstly, quit lying about the willie mays signed card, you know it's not true. He is a dealer and not a third party authenticator and doesn't authenticate other peoples autographs for money.

secondly, i never mentioned you at all, you flatter yourself.

thirdly, get the company line right, it's only one mistake out of 1000 (.1%), or as John R. says, 1 out of 10,000 (.01%)

5% error rate stinks. and they are the worlds experts? Mueller challenged any authenticator to a contest, winner take all, he got no takers from the worlds experts. I could clean their clock on boxing, why are they the world's boxing experts again?

fourthly, many, many of their errors are not clerical or honest mistakes, they are the product of authenticating too fast, sending the wrong person to authenticate the wrong autograph, conflicts of interest, and just general apathy towards being meticulous and getting it right.

fifthly, did you see the signed boxing glove that was just auctioned off at hugginsandscott.com for 2100 dollars. It had two Marciano signatures on it, and those are unlike any we have any seen, but signed off by joe orlando on a coa. Would you trust his opinion on this piece?

What makes them experts? Can anyone explain that? Mastro pushed for them and pumped up their credentials and that is how they got started, but tell me why they are good?


It is unbelievable, and you can find no criticism of this pathetic Marciano? Quit authenticating boxing, PSA!

Travis "What makes Todd Mueller an autograph expert?" What, no criticism of this obvious Derek Jeter forgery that Todd Mueller stated "Is authentic?"

As a matter of fact, Todd made up a whopping story to try to convince others that this Jeter forgery was authentic.

TM-Jeter-Forgery-1.jpg

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

5% error rate stinks. and they are the worlds experts?

In my experience, they have a better rate than this in baseball, but I have only researched a small number of players sporadically. I'm no expert, which brings me to my next point...

Originally Posted by travrosty

Mueller challenged any authenticator to a contest, winner take all, he got no takers from the worlds experts. I could clean their clock on boxing, why are they the world's boxing experts again?

Intriguing. How would such a contest work, exactly? Who would "officiate"?

[travrosty]

i dont know , but there will never be such a competition because they know they would lose. it would have to be an impartial third party who selected the autographs, both real and fake, and see who gets the most right, with no exemplars present, just off of memory. I would love just a joe louis contest, they are clueless when it comes to Louis, a total abomination.

[JimStinson]

I would love to participate in that contest. Where is it going to be held? I've done over 150 private signings with boxers alone so I know a little about that. Italy-Argentina-Thailand-UK....lots of miles under my belt ...I'd love to give it a shot. Is there a "handicap"?

[travrosty]

you have to drink for a couple hours to give me a sporting chance

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

i dont know , but there will never be such a competition because they know they would lose. it would have to be an impartial third party who selected the autographs, both real and fake, and see who gets the most right, with no exemplars present, just off of memory. I would love just a joe louis contest, they are clueless when it comes to Louis, a total abomination.

See, my point was that someone would have to select the real and fake autos. So, the contest would be one of who agrees or disagrees with the judge more. Who would the judge be? Who is never wrong?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

See, my point was that someone would have to select the real and fake autos. So, the contest would be one of who agrees or disagrees with the judge more. Who would the judge be? Who is never wrong?

nobody is never wrong. but the third party judge could pick autos with information about them that the participants don't have, like impeccable provenance, in person autos with the recipients still living, and so forth.

not a perfect system but the chances that one autograph making the difference and being in dispute to taint the whole contest would hopefully be slim.

i know if two guys were involved and asked me to be the judge, i am confident i could find a bunch of autographs i knew were good and bad because i would have a lot of time to pick the autographs and use outside help too. the trick is to find some that are not dead on or dead off because you need some of them a little challenging, but not a trick autograph either that doesnt give clues as to its authenticity. i.e. a real autograph written left handed by a righty who did it as a lark. I would have fun doing the contest with anybody I knew had real experience, because maybe i would lose or win by one or two autographs and nothing to be ashamed of, but i know i could beat psa, because they say they know boxing, but do they really? Mix in a preprint, stamp or secretarial in there too. make it a hard test but fair. Losing to psa would be quite embarrassing I would admit but i'm not too worried, they ain't taking me up on the offer because who is their best boxing guy, steve grad? they are the ones who said they needed help in boxing, i am afraid they still do.

http://www.fighttoys.com/PSAHolyfield.htm

http://www.fighttoys.com/PSAMarciano2.htm

psa used to have a contest at the national to test peoples authentication skill, they called it the psa world series of autograph authentication or whatever, richard bond won the first year and mark theotikos won the second year, and then they stopped doing it. but they had some silly time limit and is that what authentication is all about, rushing somebody?