This is the problem with grading...

vintagetoppsguy · #1 08-18-2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Is the use of a hidden reserve fraudulent/criminal?

On eBay, aren't all reserves hidden until they're met or unless the seller is willing to divulge that information?

Or am I missing something?

BCauley · #2 08-18-2012, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

On eBay, aren't all reserves hidden until they're met or unless the seller is willing to divulge that information?

Correct

WhenItWasAHobby · #3 08-18-2012, 09:26 AM

Another problem with this shill issue "as a hidden reserve" argument is that it is cheating Ebay out of the fees paid for a legitimate reserve.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 08-18-2012, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

On eBay, aren't all reserves hidden until they're met or unless the seller is willing to divulge that information?

Or am I missing something?

Right, I was thinking more of a situation where the FACT of a reserve is hidden in addition to the amount.

steve B · #5 08-18-2012, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, I was thinking more of a situation where the FACT of a reserve is hidden in addition to the amount.

That's somewhat common in live auctions. When I worked for the car dealer we sold most of the tradeins through an auction and nearly every one had a reserve. That reserve was seldom announced. Once bidding ended they'd usually just say "sold" or "sorry too low". Rarely if a buyer was close the auctioneer might tell them how close they were. But that was unusual. The seller was on the podium with the auctioneer, and could lower the reserve if they wanted to.

I'll also say that the auto auction let me see all manner of shenanigans with bidding. Shills, known or unknown - Yep, saw a guy bid up his friends car witout his friends knowledge. "Bids" that didn't have an actual bidder. A bidder who won and literally ran off and left before they could figure out who it was. A sort of reverse shill on a car with problems- 1000 and over the car could be returned, and there was a very quick hammer at 950. If it wasn't dealers only there'd have been a lot of trouble. (Car dealers don't often get much sympathy in court)

Steve B

buymycards · #6 08-18-2012, 10:11 AM

Here is the latest at the CU board.

http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=864721

It will probably be removed in a few minutes.

WhenItWasAHobby · #7 08-18-2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buymycards

Here is the latest at the CU board.

http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=864721

It will probably be removed in a few minutes.

No doubt it will, but it is a bit refreshing to see that even the most ardent PSA apologists are finally seeing the light - even to the point of becoming an official member of the PSA Persona Non Grata Club - like me. I used to post over there for 8 years until I was finally banned. I think Kevin Saucier said it best, "You're nobody until you've been banned from the PSA Message Board".

Many years ago Joe Orlando made a statement on that message board that caused an uproar by stating that the PSA message board readership comprised of only 1% of the PSA collectors and whatever was posted on the board really didn't carry much weight regarding how PSA runs their business.

So the conclusion I draw from that is that it appears that alienating 1% of your customer base makes better business-sense than fixing all the problems that the remaining 99% doesn't have a clue about.

john.clowes · #8 08-18-2012, 07:59 PM

There is an old customer service adage that for every person who complains there are 99 others who feel the same way but rather than complain they stop doing business. Probably applies here.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 08-18-2012, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

That's somewhat common in live auctions. When I worked for the car dealer we sold most of the tradeins through an auction and nearly every one had a reserve. That reserve was seldom announced. Once bidding ended they'd usually just say "sold" or "sorry too low". Rarely if a buyer was close the auctioneer might tell them how close they were. But that was unusual. The seller was on the podium with the auctioneer, and could lower the reserve if they wanted to.

I'll also say that the auto auction let me see all manner of shenanigans with bidding. Shills, known or unknown - Yep, saw a guy bid up his friends car witout his friends knowledge. "Bids" that didn't have an actual bidder. A bidder who won and literally ran off and left before they could figure out who it was. A sort of reverse shill on a car with problems- 1000 and over the car could be returned, and there was a very quick hammer at 950. If it wasn't dealers only there'd have been a lot of trouble. (Car dealers don't often get much sympathy in court)

Steve B

I suspect auctions have seen shenanigans since the first bushel of wheat was auctioned in the Agora.

teetwoohsix · #10 08-18-2012, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

That's somewhat common in live auctions. When I worked for the car dealer we sold most of the tradeins through an auction and nearly every one had a reserve. That reserve was seldom announced. Once bidding ended they'd usually just say "sold" or "sorry too low". Rarely if a buyer was close the auctioneer might tell them how close they were. But that was unusual. The seller was on the podium with the auctioneer, and could lower the reserve if they wanted to.

I'll also say that the auto auction let me see all manner of shenanigans with bidding. Shills, known or unknown - Yep, saw a guy bid up his friends car witout his friends knowledge. "Bids" that didn't have an actual bidder. A bidder who won and literally ran off and left before they could figure out who it was. A sort of reverse shill on a car with problems- 1000 and over the car could be returned, and there was a very quick hammer at 950. If it wasn't dealers only there'd have been a lot of trouble. (Car dealers don't often get much sympathy in court)

Steve B

Very interesting Steve. I spoke with a guy who works for a very large car dealership out here that buys and sells used cars awhile back. The used cars they sell are very nice, in fact, they almost all look new.

I asked him why that was- he said they do buy cars that they don't put on the lot, if they don't quite meet their standards (dings, too many miles, etc.)-he said they send those cars off to be auctioned (to other used car dealers mostly, but also open to the public).

I asked him how they guarantee that they won't lose money, and he said they start the bid at what they paid for the car. I asked "what if the highest bid is only the first bid-what you paid for the car?" and he said that even if that happens on every car that they still make money off of the fees to enter the auction and the fees to bid....so even if every car only sold for what they paid for it, they still make decent money from the fees.

Back on topic (sorry)....so the CU board wipes out whole threads? Wow.

Sincerely, Clayton

drc · #11 08-18-2012, 12:58 PM

My experience is the loyal PSA collector have the same types of questions as others, it's just they're not always allowed to talk about them on that board.

I've also seen collectors who assume PSA is always 100% accurate.

Bigdaddy · #12 08-18-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drc

I've also seen collectors who assume PSA is always 100% accurate.

If PSA is always 100% accurate, then there would never be a cause to resubmit for a bump - they always get it right the first time.

Tobacco&Gum · #13 08-18-2012, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

so the CU board wipes out whole threads? Wow.

Not only does CU wipe out threads, they'll wipe out members for suggesting that perhaps some submitters recieve leeway or special treatment on grades.

If you even mention 4 Sharp Corners or Rick P or some others in a negative light you run the risk of being banned.

I would imagine that the CU boards are a lot like what message boards must have been like in the former Soviet Union.

Peter_Spaeth · #14 08-18-2012, 07:00 PM

--

mark evans · #15 08-18-2012, 07:55 PM

When I learn that CU deletes threads (and bans members?) for criticizing PSA, I'm glad to be a member of a board where the freedom of speech is alive and well.

teetwoohsix · #16 08-19-2012, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tobacco&Gum

Not only does CU wipe out threads, they'll wipe out members for suggesting that perhaps some submitters recieve leeway or special treatment on grades.

If you even mention 4 Sharp Corners or Rick P or some others in a negative light you run the risk of being banned.

I would imagine that the CU boards are a lot like what message boards must have been like in the former Soviet Union.

Thanks James- good to know.

That's one of the (many) great things about Net54, is that you can talk about controversial issues that are going on in the hobby. I've never once seen a thread get wiped out here.

And, your last comment had me rolling

Sincerely, Clayton

mark evans · #17 08-18-2012, 09:32 AM

It seems to me that we need to distinguish between shilling where the auction house is complicit and not. As to the former, hopefully the Mastro prosecution will put the fear of God in those who would otherwise engage in the practice. [If not, and given the limited resources of law enforcement, I once suggested adoption of a hobby code of ethics to be enforced by a sort of inspector general to address shilling and other issues. This proposal was rejected as unworkable by pretty much everyone who commented. Maybe so, I don't know.]

As to shilling by a consignor or his confederates, this strikes me as more difficult to prohibit. I am inclined to agree with Peter that so long as the winning bidder pays the commission, that's the best that can be expected.

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