This is the problem with grading...

[CMIZ5290]

Holy cow, can you say "old news"?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Holy cow, can you say "old news"?

How so?

[nolemmings]

have I taken any action against that bidders ID since it was shown to me that a safely bid was placed ? yes, i have blocked that ID....

I still think that is insufficient--refuse his consignments. Sounds like he has enough above board consignors that he doesn't need to be affiliated or connected in any way to a shiller.

[skelly]

Let me throw this out at the board. I almost feel that any card that is going to get a PSA 10, should be "signed" off on by Joe Orlando. He's the face of PSA and how many "10's" actually come in to PSA ( Let me back up and we'll say any card before 1980 of a "star" player. Any pre- 1970 card of anyone must be signed off on ) Joe might not be a professional grader, but he's got a good set of eyes. He's seen enough cards to know what a 10 looks like. Heck, you could even include a little certificate with the card the says congrats, lists how many other 10's are for that particular issue, etc... I know if I were Joe, the Art Shell 8 to a 10 situation would have me hot and looking for answers from the graders that were involved.

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Holy cow, can you say "old news"?

Kevin I'm sorry but it really sounds as though you have a vested intrest in Probstein123. Rather than ignore some of these people saying stuff you are quick on the trigger to jump at his defense when Rick himself has not even bothered to address the board about an ongoing thread against him and his consigner. I havent bid with him in yrs because I felt some auctions were inflated. Proof enough for me was the same 3 cards were up as BIN's 2-3 weeks later by him. Maybe the buyer backed out and he figured he could resell at 20% higher than the 25% higher they sold at already. Just my $.02 since I can't prove either scenario to be the reason so I just stay away.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by pup6913

kevin i'm sorry but it really sounds as though you have a vested intrest in probstein123. Rather than ignore some of these people saying stuff you are quick on the trigger to jump at his defense when rick himself has not even bothered to address the board about an ongoing thread against him and his consigner. I havent bid with him in yrs because i felt some auctions were inflated. Proof enough for me was the same 3 cards were up as bin's 2-3 weeks later by him. Maybe the buyer backed out and he figured he could resell at 20% higher than the 25% higher they sold at already. Just my $.02 since i can't prove either scenario to be the reason so i just stay away.

first of all, i have bought cards from this guy for many years with no issues (with no vested interest). I have bought many, many t206s from him that were lower than current vcp prices. But, having said all that, this thread has been going on for over 5 days!! I'm sure if there is any concern on rick's part, he will address it. He's too good a business man not to. I just wish someone would put a stake in the heart of this thread. Also, even if there is an assumption that there is some truth to some of the accusations, are you going to honestly tell me that this is not constantly going on in the hobby to a great extent?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

first of all, i have bought cards from this guy for many years with no issues (with no vested interest).

I think many of us could say the same thing. I know I can. But as I said earlier in this thread, how do I know I wasn't shilled by the consignor on some of my purchases? I really never gave it much thought until all this came out.

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Also, even if there is an assumption that there is some truth to some of the accusations, are you going to honestly tell me that this is not constantly going on in the hobby to a great extent?

No one can tell you that because there is probably a lot of truth in that statement. However, this thread exposed a shiller (pank21) and, if nothing else, might possibly make consignors (with Probstein or any other consignment service) think twice about shilling their own auctions because of the fear of being caught.

A big thanks to the sleuths over on the CU boards!

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me the real question here is how did the Shell get a 10. I have seen other 10s on ebay of much more expensive cards that equally baffle me. And through cardtarget I have seen submissions where the number of consecutive 10s is troubling. In my opinion, the 10 grade is arbitrary and meaningless to begin with, as is the 98. I also don't like Beckett's system but that is for another thread; but in short I don't see how a card with less than Mint corners can be graded Mint.

The bidding aspect of this is inconsequential, I could not care less about a protective bid.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

to me the real question here is how did the shell get a 10. I have seen other 10s on ebay of much more expensive cards that equally baffle me. And through cardtarget i have seen submissions where the number of consecutive 10s is troubling. In my opinion, the 10 grade is arbitrary and meaningless to begin with, as is the 98. I also don't like beckett's system but that is for another thread; but in short i don't see how a card with less than mint corners can be graded mint.

The bidding aspect of this is inconsequential, i could not care less about a protective bid.

+1....the grade of 10 is crazy for this card, i totally agree with that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

+1....the grade of 10 is crazy for this card, i totally agree with that.

I think it's crazy period, especially as a high percentage of 10s (of significant cards anyhow) probably are just bumped 9s.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To me the real question here is how did the Shell get a 10. I have seen other 10s on ebay of much more expensive cards that equally baffle me. And through cardtarget I have seen submissions where the number of consecutive 10s is troubling. In my opinion, the 10 grade is arbitrary and meaningless to begin with, as is the 98. I also don't like Beckett's system but that is for another thread; but in short I don't see how a card with less than Mint corners can be graded Mint.

The bidding aspect of this is inconsequential, I could not care less about a protective bid.

I got a call from Joe O yesterday concerning some Net54baseball board issues. Suffice it to say, and it's worth repeating, if you make a public claim (such as is on this board) you can be held legally liable for what you say. I am not saying to not say anything you want to, but you might want to consider the facts before you make statements. For instance, if you call ME a thief on a forum, you better have your ducks in a row because you will have to be proving that in court. I am not saying anyone called Joe O a thief, or anything wrong was even said......it doesn't matter that much to me except I do think Joe is a good hobbyist and good for the hobby. And your privacy WILL NOT be protected per the board rules concerning opinions of people or companies. Stand behind what you say or don't say it. OF course your privacy WILL BE protected if you only talk about cards and so forth......

I did mention to him about the card that went from an 8 to a 10. He said he hasn't personally seen it, and it's extraordinary, but does happen. I am not making any claims myself about the card. I will leave that to others. Also, keep in mind it's difficult to be perfect in a somewhat subjective industry, when you grade over 100,000 cards a month. I am not making excuses or saying mistakes should happen, but they do. Personally I think the hobby is better with PSA, SGC and Beckett all grading cards....I have my preferences but that will be for another thread.

[jstef]

David, if you snipe you don't have to worry about being shilled.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jstef

David, if you snipe you don't have to worry about being shilled.

Um. Really?

[Matthew H]

It's interesting that Joe O has seen this thread but not the Art Shell... It's right there in post #1.

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

are you going to honestly tell me that this is not constantly going on in the hobby to a great extent?

Very true Kevin. I believe any time that we do find it they are brought here to be crusified by the board though.

I do understand that this is about his consigner and PSA but it really makes him look bad when he doesnt address the issues. Maybe he feels he owes no explanation?