Addie Joss auto?

[JimStinson]

I just spoke on the phone with Ron K. (author of the book), the example of Joss that he is using in his book is one which originated from the family of Nap Lajoie as part of an autograph album that sold back in the 1980's. I know of only two examples generally believed to be authentic, one of them being the one referenced above (that will be in the book) and one which was obtained directly from Addie Joss widow which is cut from a legal document. They are both slightly different but I believe both are authentic. The cut from the legal document matches almost exactly letter for letter the autographed postcard addressed to his son referenced in this thread that was authenticated by Kevin Keating. The version that is to be in the book resembles slightly the example the fellow posted here that he obtained from the long time Texas autograph dealer. I think I know who he is speaking about but can't remember the dealers name, Was it Conrad Barker ? If I recall he was based out of Dallas and died about 20 years ago and he had been a dealer with a good reputation for about 60 years. Maybe a hobby veteran could help with the name. If its the same guy he called his company something else and it was taken over after he died and honestly can't say if they are still in business or not, I'm thinking not.

Two factors to take into consideration with Addie Joss is
a) The variance in his signature probably due to the fact that he was a very sick man the last few years of his life
b) raritiy of known examples
So being able to track and confirm provenance is vital in determining authenticity perhaps even more important than what the autograph itself actually looks like. I've never had an Addie Joss or been offered one so I have no dog in the fight. Hope this helps.

[chaddurbin]

we need a "like" or "+" feature for posts...jim's always a wealth of knowledge on autos and willing to share.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

we need a "like" or "+" feature for posts...jim's always a wealth of knowledge on autos and willing to share.

+infinity

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

+infinity

From one of my favorite movies.. "Billy! You're so stupid, you were were supposed to say infinity+infinity!!!"

[JimStinson]

There is a really good book on Addie Joss that used to be available through SABR, that details his chonic health problems. His obituary from 1911 reads "PITCHER JOSS DEAD, ILL ONLY FEW DAYS" he died from tubercular meningitas, but as was customary if a player was sick he didn't play so his condition of course was kept quiet plus a team would be less likely to sign a player with a fatal illness to a lucrative contract. News accounts of the day reported "arm problems" and the like especially in 1910.

The Lajoie scrapbook that contained the Joss if I remember correctly was signed around 1908. In addition to some Hall of Famers it also had the autographs of many 19th century non-famers. Several buyers were fighting over the book back then and I think what happened is a few dealers partnered in on it and bought it and broke it up. I ended up with a few signatures from the book that I needed at the time for my own collection. I don;t know where the Joss ended up

As for Richard's suggestion asking Ron K. about authenticity I can almost predict what his evaluation would be , And I say that only because even though I believe both the signature from the Lajoie book and the document signature I mentioned from the widow are legit. We disagreed slightly on the examplar that was obtained from Joss's wife. So much so in fact that I provided a copy for the book but he chose not to include it.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I just spoke on the phone with Ron K. (author of the book), the example of Joss that he is using in his book is one which originated from the family of Nap Lajoie as part of an autograph album that sold back in the 1980's. I know of only two examples generally believed to be authentic, one of them being the one referenced above (that will be in the book) and one which was obtained directly from Addie Joss widow which is cut from a legal document. They are both slightly different but I believe both are authentic. The cut from the legal document matches almost exactly letter for letter the autographed postcard addressed to his son referenced in this thread that was authenticated by Kevin Keating. The version that is to be in the book resembles slightly the example the fellow posted here that he obtained from the long time Texas autograph dealer. I think I know who he is speaking about but can't remember the dealers name, Was it Conrad Barker ? If I recall he was based out of Dallas and died about 20 years ago and he had been a dealer with a good reputation for about 60 years. Maybe a hobby veteran could help with the name. If its the same guy he called his company something else and it was taken over after he died and honestly can't say if they are still in business or not, I'm thinking not.

Two factors to take into consideration with Addie Joss is
a) The variance in his signature probably due to the fact that he was a very sick man the last few years of his life
b) raritiy of known examples
So being able to track and confirm provenance is vital in determining authenticity perhaps even more important than what the autograph itself actually looks like. I've never had an Addie Joss or been offered one so I have no dog in the fight. Hope this helps.

Jim,

Great information-thanks!

Has Ron K. ever told you from what time period he believes that the autograph from Nap Lajoie's album was signed?

Also, I know that Joss died from Tubercular Meningitis, but I was unaware that he was ill for a long period of time. I do know that the TB Meningitis that Joss ultimately died of struck him suddenly in April of 1911 and he died within a few days, shocking the baseball world at the time.

Did Joss suffer from other major ailments as well? It's amazing that he was able to throw a perfect game in 1908 and a no-hitter in 1910 if he did.
Just wondering....

[RichardSimon]

I would agree that the autograph of Joss should be authenticated. However, the one person whose opinion I would trust on this is not a formal authenticator.
Ron Keurajian would be the one person I would trust to give an opinion on this autograph.
I know him but it seems that Jim knows him much better then I do.
Perhaps he can help out here.
Jim, would you want to ask him if he will help?

[David Atkatz]

Conway Barker, Jim.

I've still got some of his old price lists. Man! Those prices! Still it was too much money for me when I was twelve or so.

[jeffmohler]

Jim - if I recall correctly, the Texas dealer you reference was Conway Barker. William Van Buskirk used to consign material to Mr. Barker to sell.

[JimStinson]

I believe thats the guy, he was pleasant and knowledgible and honest.

I culled this from wiki but the SABR book goes into alot more detail. Joss was a seriously frail man

Of his 160 Major League wins, an astonishing 45 were shutouts. Joss's 1.89 career ERA is ranked second all-time (behind that of Ed Walsh), while his 0.97 WHIP is the lowest career WHIP in MLB history. His lifetime wins total suffered because he missed portions of several seasons due to injury and illness

[Scott Garner]

Jim,
Thanks again for providing all of the terrific information.
You are an awesome resource and and it's great to have you as part of the net54 community!

[7nohitter]

HOLY SH*T!

Will be following this one very closely!!

[scmavl]

Wow! Could this auto be listed as "The Net54 Find"???

[yanks12025]

So this may be a good joss auto? I thought it looked too good for being 100 years old but I also know nothing about autos.

[MiracleBraves1914]

Jim, the name Conrad Barker definitely rings a bell. That very well could be him but I'm by no means certain.
I'll keep everyone posted as I attempt to authenticate it. Thank you for all the information and help!

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by MiracleBraves1914

Jim, the name Conrad Barker definitely rings a bell. That very well could be him but I'm by no means certain.
I'll keep everyone posted as I attempt to authenticate it. Thank you for all the information and help!

Matt - start with Kevin Keating for your authenticating... 703-519-9881

[novakjr]

As an Cleveland fan, and Perfect Game collector, this thing would be my Holy Grail...Somehow, I'm thrilled as hell to have just seen a picture of it here...I'm definitely pulling for ya "MiracleBrave"... This is just awesome...

[MiracleBraves1914]

Matt, thank you so much for Kevin Keating's contact information. I'm on vacation through Labor Day, but I'll definitely get in touch with him upon my return and let everyone know how it goes!

[HOFAUTOS]

Good luck! Hoping to hear some good news upon your return.

[michael3322]

Are there any updates on this?

Thanks.