Giants VS Cardinals

[Anthony S.]

How did Cain overachieve? He's had an era under 2.90 and a whip under 1.09 for 3 out of the past 4 years. He has much better winning percentage this year for the simple reason that they're scoring more runs for him. Those first few post Bonds offensives were pretty anemic.

He also had 3 starts and pitched 20 and 1/3 innings during the 2010 playoffs without giving up a single earned run.

[thekingofclout]

I think the key to this Series, is which Lincecum shows up. The one from the last four years or the one from this year.

[71buc]

Originally Posted by thekingofclout

I think the key to this Series, is which Lincecum shows up. The one from the last four years or the one from this year.

I pull for him as he is a local guy. I watched him in high school and college. His 2012 numbers are a continuation of the struggles that began the last half of 2011.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by 71buc

I pull for him as he is a local guy. I watched him in high school and college. His 2012 numbers are a continuation of the struggles that began the last half of 2011.

Tim didn't struggle during the 2nd half of 2011. He had a 2.31 era after the all-star break last year. He struggled (big time) in August of 2010, but straightened things out in September and on into the post season that year.

[thekingofclout]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

Tim didn't struggle during the 2nd half of 2011. He had a 2.31 era after the all-star break last year. He struggled (big time) in August of 2010, but straightening things out in September and on into the post season that year.

He also came in 6th for the Cy Young Award last year. Every pitcher should struggle like that.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

How did Cain overachieve? He's had an era under 2.90 and a whip under 1.09 for 3 out of the past 4 years. He has much better winning percentage this year for the simple reason that they're scoring more runs for him. Those first few post Bonds offensives were pretty anemic.

He also had 3 starts and pitched 20 and 1/3 innings during the 2010 playoffs without giving up a single earned run.

Maybe it's just me, but I am unbiased when it comes to any player...I just don't see elite when I see Cain pitch.

He had his best overall year this year...therefore I believe he overachieved. Maybe he's going to be better from this year moving forward, but he was never great, but more of a good pitcher. You can say what you want about wins and losses and run support, but Felix never gets run support and he's considered elite. Until this year, no one would really think of comparing Cain with Felix...I still don't. Cain was more of a 6 inning, 5-7 strikeout kinda guy until this year. He has career numbers of 85-78 in the win loss column...run support or not, the Giants haven't been a bad team since he's been there. He's never deserved to be a #1 guy until this year....hence the overachieve label.

Edited to add: Anthony, I just noticed you're from San Francisco...your post makes a lot more sense now. And good luck to the Giants...should be a great series.

[deebro041]

I like to see the results of players in the World Series who used to play in the opposing league. Fielder vs Scutaro!!

[itjclarke]

I'm still drying off after last night! This has been by far the most resiliant team I've ever rooted for. To respond to other comments, people who've watched baseball in this timezone and in this town know Cain has been a rock ever since he came up at age 20. He suffered through 2 years of the worst run support in baseball.. stayed mentally tough, focused and never wavered. There are some guys who are far better than their stats show (Cain) and rise to the occasion at the right time, and some guys aided by great run support and the freedom of consistantly pitching from ahead, who aren't necessarily as good as their stats say. Cain is much more than a 6 inning guy. Until the latter part of this year, he and the rest of this staff had been consitantly going deep into games, and he's got a nice streak of 200+ inning years. The whole starting staff hit a bump in the road toward the end of the year and into this postseason, but I think their best performances are ahead. Either way, it's still fun to see them still fly under the national radar, winning games the right way and as a team. Star power doesn't win (Angels, Dodgers, Yanks, Marlins, others prove that). I'm psyched for a great series and can't wait to be at the yard to see Zito's 85 MPH guts and guile up against Verlander's 99 MPH gas. They may not get to Verlander, but as always with this team, no one will play scared or intimidated.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I'm still drying off after last night! This has been by far the most resiliant team I've ever rooted for. To respond to other comments, people who've watched baseball in this timezone and in this town know Cain has been a rock ever since he came up at age 20. He suffered through 2 years of the worst run support in baseball.. stayed mentally tough, focused and never wavered. There are some guys who are far better than their stats show (Cain) and rise to the occasion at the right time, and some guys aided by great run support and the freedom of consistantly pitching from ahead, who aren't necessarily as good as their stats say. Cain is much more than a 6 inning guy. Until the latter part of this year, he and the rest of this staff had been consitantly going deep into games, and he's got a nice streak of 200+ inning years. The whole starting staff hit a bump in the road toward the end of the year and into this postseason, but I think their best performances are ahead. Either way, it's still fun to see them still fly under the national radar, winning games the right way and as a team. Star power doesn't win (Angels, Dodgers, Yanks, Marlins, others prove that). I'm psyched for a great series and can't wait to be at the yard to see Zito's 85 MPH guts and guile up against Verlander's 99 MPH gas. They may not get to Verlander, but as always with this team, no one will play scared or intimidated.

Gotta love you 'frisco guys...God love ya!

Funny how you mention that star power doesn't win...but how many World Series do the star powered Yankees have? Sometimes being excited about your team making the World Series takes you out of reality. I'm excited for the Tigers and the Giants and it should make for a great series, but I think even the Giants are suprised they made it this far...did you see Pence's interview after the game? He was amazed at what happened...like most people are. I have a good feeling the Tigers aren't going to be so forgiving like the Red's and Cardinals were.

[freakhappy]

Don't get me wrong, I know Cain has been consistent but other than the first half of this year, I don't see him being a dominating, great pitcher. He definitely came down the second half to his normal self.

Someone mentioned that he is more than a six inning pitcher and I agree that he has this year. Look at his last four playoff starts...dude can't make it past 6 innings. He's far from elite...

E.T.A: I'd take a dead hooker over Cain anyday...

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Someone mentioned that he is more than a six inning pitcher and I agree that he has this year. Look at his last four playoff starts...dude can't make it past 6 innings. He's far from elite...

E.T.A: I'd take a dead hooker over Cain anyday...

Cain has averaged over 6 innings per start in each of his 7 full seasons as a starter and just short of 7 innings per starting each of the past 3. From about 2008 on Bochy began routinely letting Cain, Lincecum.. and into this year Bumgarner and Vogelsong go deep and work their way out of late inning (7th or 8th) jams. As the season wore on, and the staff's performance hit a rut in late summer, Bochy's deleloped a much quicker hook. That's what you saw last night. Cain would've and very well could've finished that inning, and I have no doubt could've thrown 130 pitches as he's done many times before. He can't force his manager to keep him in the game though. Don't forget he's won a game 5 and a game 7 so far this postseason.. and had a 0.00 ERA in 21 postseason innings in 2010.

To your point about "star power".. you'd can't disagree that the Paul O'Neill, Scott Brossius, Jimmy Leyritz (and homegrown stars Jeter, Riveria, Posada) Yankees did a hell of a lot better than the trade/free agent All Star teams they assembled starting around 2002, 2003, 2004, and on... adding the Sheffields, Texieras and A-Rods haven't really paid off as hoped. I'm sure they'll enjoy eating $20 million of A-Rods contract while he plays for someone else next year.. or next FIVE YEARS! Definitely seems worth having that star power to me?!? Mets have had a lot of stars over the past 20 years also.. how many championships did they win with Mo Vaughn though? I'll take the Giants' 2010 and 2012 cast of characters over those stiffs any day.

This isn't unknowing "Frisco" fans getting over excited. I played baseball my entire life, I've watched baseball my entire life, had season tickets the better part of a decade living about 3 blocks from the ballpark, and I think I know the game pretty well. My excitemet for this team is well justified and I'm fully on board because they can win in a variety of ways with a variety of characters and all the while making due with the fewest homeruns in the league. Give me clean fielding, successful surprise bunts (see Zito), butcher plays, timely gap to gap hitting, and a solid starting staff and bullpen over a power dependent lineup with 3-4 modern day Rob Deers that hit .220 with 30 bombs to a short porch in right (please set Curtis Granderson free). This SF team's got incredible heart (like St Louis last year) and kept playing when down 0-2 and 1-3 in their two series rather than laying down, and that's why they're playing Wednesday.

[barrysloate]

Giants are blessed with five really good starting pitchers- Cain, Bumgarner, Vogelsong, Zito, and Lincecum- all of whom are capable of big games but also some poor ones. Lincecum is the biggest question mark- dreadful first half of the season, greatly improved second half, some really fine middle relief in the post season, one pretty bad start- so he might be best used in key situations in a relief role. He seems to excel throwing 2-3 innings in middle relief, and they already have four starters.

I think Giants are in the catbird seat. Expect them to lose three of the first four, then win the last three for the championship.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Cain has averaged over 6 innings per start in each of his 7 full seasons as a starter and just short of 7 innings per starting each of the past 3. From about 2008 on Bochy began routinely letting Cain, Lincecum.. and into this year Bumgarner and Vogelsong go deep and work their way out of late inning (7th or 8th) jams. As the season wore on, and the staff's performance hit a rut in late summer, Bochy's deleloped a much quicker hook. That's what you saw last night. Cain would've and very well could've finished that inning, and I have no doubt could've thrown 130 pitches as he's done many times before. He can't force his manager to keep him in the game though. Don't forget he's won a game 5 and a game 7 so far this postseason.. and had a 0.00 ERA in 21 postseason innings in 2010.

To your point about "star power".. you'd can't disagree that the Paul O'Neill, Scott Brossius, Jimmy Leyritz (and homegrown stars Jeter, Riveria, Posada) Yankees did a hell of a lot better than the trade/free agent All Star teams they assembled starting around 2002, 2003, 2004, and on... adding the Sheffields, Texieras and A-Rods haven't really paid off as hoped. I'm sure they'll enjoy eating $20 million of A-Rods contract while he plays for someone else next year.. or next FIVE YEARS! Definitely seems worth having that star power to me?!? Mets have had a lot of stars over the past 20 years also.. how many championships did they win with Mo Vaughn though? I'll take the Giants' 2010 and 2012 cast of characters over those stiffs any day.

This isn't unknowing "Frisco" fans getting over excited. I played baseball my entire life, I've watched baseball my entire life, had season tickets the better part of a decade living about 3 blocks from the ballpark, and I think I know the game pretty well. My excitemet for this team is well justified and I'm fully on board because they can win in a variety of ways with a variety of characters and all the while making due with the fewest homeruns in the league. Give me clean fielding, successful surprise bunts (see Zito), butcher plays, timely gap to gap hitting, and a solid starting staff and bullpen over a power dependent lineup with 3-4 modern day Rob Deers that hit .220 with 30 bombs to a short porch in right (please set Curtis Granderson free). This SF team's got incredible heart (like St Louis last year) and kept playing when down 0-2 and 1-3 in their two series rather than laying down, and that's why they're playing Wednesday.

Comparing the modern day 'frisco to the modern day Yankees is a joke...so we won't go there. I love the Giants this year and the way they have played, but like Anthony posted earlier, the Giants haven't had much to cheer about in recent years except their WS year. Barry's right, they have good pitching...deep pitching which I believe is key in baseball. Just hard to win without it. Their pitching has been great in the playoffs. We'll see how they matchup vs. one of the best offenses in the league.

Mentioning Zito in a sentence when describing good pitchers is a joke...a real funny joke. He's bad. Sure he's had a few good starts this postseason, but I'd be real worried on what's going to happen tonight...the REAL Zito will most likely show up.

Do you really think A-rod's contract will affect the Yankees that much? They will simply reload like they always do and be back next year. For knowing baseball you sure seem one-sided in your thinking.

[sportscardpete]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Don't get me wrong, I know Cain has been consistent but other than the first half of this year, I don't see him being a dominating, great pitcher. He definitely came down the second half to his normal self.

Someone mentioned that he is more than a six inning pitcher and I agree that he has this year. Look at his last four playoff starts...dude can't make it past 6 innings. He's far from elite...

E.T.A: I'd take a dead hooker over Cain anyday...

Oh c'mon, ya he has been shaky this postseason but Cain is elite. IDK how you can possibly disagree with that. And 2nd half - in his last ten starts, only gave up over 2 runs once.. Not sure what you are seeing. Cain is money.

Who do you see as elite then right now?! Verlander? M. Price? Dead hookers?

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Maybe it's just me, but I am unbiased when it comes to any player...I just don't see elite when I see Cain pitch.

He had his best overall year this year...therefore I believe he overachieved. Maybe he's going to be better from this year moving forward, but he was never great, but more of a good pitcher. You can say what you want about wins and losses and run support, but Felix never gets run support and he's considered elite. Until this year, no one would really think of comparing Cain with Felix...I still don't. Cain was more of a 6 inning, 5-7 strikeout kinda guy until this year. He has career numbers of 85-78 in the win loss column...run support or not, the Giants haven't been a bad team since he's been there. He's never deserved to be a #1 guy until this year....hence the overachieve label.

Edited to add: Anthony, I just noticed you're from San Francisco...your post makes a lot more sense now. And good luck to the Giants...should be a great series.

The Giants haven't had a bad team since he's been there? He came up in 2005. His first four years the Giants were:

2005 75-87
2006 76-85
2007 71-91 last in the NL West
2008 70-92 last in the NL West

His record over those 4 years was 30-43. He was also ages 20-23 during those years.

Since then (starting in 2009) he's 55-35. Over the same time period Lincecum is 54-46.

The Giants have had the worst or close to the worst offense in each of these past 4 years. in 2011 Cain had 21 starts in which he allowed 2 runs or less. He only got 12 wins, because the Giants couldn't score (especially after Posey broke his ankle in early May).

Cain was the Giants #1 starter, statistically, in 2007, 2010, and 2012. During two of the three years he wasn't the Giants #1 starter, he was the Giants #2 starter, and the Giants #1 starter (Lincecum) won 2 Cy Young awards. One thing Cain has been over the past 4 years is extremely consistent. This year wasn't an aberration, and his stats bear that out.

Is he is good as Verlander or Hernandez? No. Is he a damn good pitcher who has been a damn good pitcher for quite a while, yes. And he'll take the ball 32-34 times a year, as he's done every year for 7 straight years, and you'll never find a dead hooker in the trunk of his car.

[thekingofclout]

Cain was the Giants #1 starter, statistically, in 2007, 2010, and 2012. During two of the three years he wasn't the Giants #1 starter, he was the Giants #2 starter, and the Giants #1 starter (Lincecum) won 2 Cy Young awards. One thing Cain has been over the past 4 years is extremely consistent. This year wasn't an aberration, and his stats bear that out.

Is he is good as Verlander or Hernandez? No. Is he a damn good pitcher who has been a damn good pitcher for quite a while, yes. And he'll take the ball 32-34 times a year, as he's done every year for 7 straight years, and you'll never find a dead hooker in the trunk of his car.

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