HOF ballot coming up

[David W]

I think you have to put all the guys who started in the mid 80's to early 90's, or none of them.

I personally think almost all were using some sort of PED's.

You cannot have the incredible, historic numbers in the huge quantities and at the advanced ages without getting a "little pick me up" of PED's.

Randy Johnson, Clemens, Bonds, should have been declining in production as they hit the mid 30's instead they were better than ever.

Piazza has offensive numbers that no catcher ever had before or since.....

Luis Gonzalez and Brady Anderson having historic seasons......

Either put them all in, or put none in, as we only know of a handful who were caught when it is likely all were using to some extent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I will lose all faith if it turns out Ripken, Gwynn, Maddux or Griffey used. Or Jeter.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Let them in. They were THE best at their position, EVER! And that's what the HOF is about, the best of the best. None failed a test, and it's not like steroids made them HOF'ers. Bonds was already a monster at the plate 'pre' steroids and easily had a HOF career, and Clemens was nasty, you saw his rookie year.

Yes, steroids can potentially make you stronger and bigger, I'm not calling anyone out specifically but it seems like so many people are too ignorant to know the other side of steroids, and so sick of people claiming that steroids are always used to help with increasing your performance. MOST players used steroids to RECOVER FASTER! Not a always get bigger, faster, stronger. Steroids actually can't make you faster because you cannot change your Type 1 or 2 muscles. But if you were a struggling pitcher who got shoulder surgery and may not have a job, you're damn right you're looking to take steroids to come back quicker from that injury.

Even in taking steroids, getting bigger muscles and having the sexy biceps or becoming stronger does not necessarily mean AT ALL that you're going to be a better player, most likely it would go against you if you got too large. Steroids do not help your hand-eye/optical focal coordination. They decrease your range of motion and your flexibility if you get too large, which would be detrimental to your game.

Which is more detrimental for the game, a player for supposedly taking a drug compared to a player being a racist or beats there wife? I saw the latter. Bonds was good for baseball, and so were McGwire and Sosa, they revived the game with that magical summer of '98, people watched the game again because of them, they saved baseball. Remember, most of this is all acqusations.

It's funny how everyone gives a crap about ballplayer's getting caught and not allowing them in the Hall or whatever, but for NFL players, no one gives a damn for failed substance abuse and performance ehancing test failures. But I guarantee the large profile NFL players will get in the Hall who have gotten caught. I mean heck, Ray Lewis and Dante Stallworth killed a man, what was the punishment? Lewis a slap on the wrist, and Stallworth avoided jailtime or had a few weeks with other stipulations. And players get more punishment for taking a drug, that's funny.

But my stance is look past the character and what they did as a person, and focus on what they did on the field, which is what the Hall is about. Bonds, A-Rod etc were dumb to take drugs, they were easily going to be the best ever in the game or close to it without them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What's your evidence that Ray Lewis was guilty of anything other than the misdemeanor he pleaded to?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What's your evidence that Ray Lewis was guilty of anything other than the misdemeanor he pleaded to?

I will try to locate the story I had saved, but if he didn't there are still others.

[EvilKing00]

so many football players wer on steeroids and still are on hgh. like in baseball everyone will do what ever they can to get an advantage.

LT (the real LT) was on coke all the time - which in my opinion helped his game - which was fine by me.

[T2069bk]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

so many football players wer on steeroids and still are on hgh. like in baseball everyone will do what ever they can to get an advantage.

LT (the real LT) was on coke all the time - which in my opinion helped his game - which was fine by me.

As a Redskin fan (and on behalf of #7) it was not fine by me!!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

I will try to locate the story I had saved, but if he didn't there are still others.

My recollection is that he was charged initially but there really wasn't any evidence that he had any involvement in the actual stabbings, but he did obstruct justice by encouraging people in his posse not to talk to the authorities. Something like that. Of course who knows what really happened.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My recollection is that he was charged initially but there really wasn't any evidence that he had any involvement in the actual stabbings, but he did obstruct justice by encouraging people in his posse not to talk to the authorities. Something like that. Of course who knows what really happened.

I believe you are collect, sorry for my accusation.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Let them in. They were THE best at their position, EVER! And that's what the HOF is about, the best of the best. None failed a test, and it's not like steroids made them HOF'ers. Bonds was already a monster at the plate 'pre' steroids and easily had a HOF career, and Clemens was nasty, you saw his rookie year.

Yes, steroids can potentially make you stronger and bigger, I'm not calling anyone out specifically but it seems like so many people are too ignorant to know the other side of steroids, and so sick of people claiming that steroids are always used to help with increasing your performance. MOST players used steroids to RECOVER FASTER! Not a always get bigger, faster, stronger. Steroids actually can't make you faster because you cannot change your Type 1 or 2 muscles. But if you were a struggling pitcher who got shoulder surgery and may not have a job, you're damn right you're looking to take steroids to come back quicker from that injury.

Even in taking steroids, getting bigger muscles and having the sexy biceps or becoming stronger does not necessarily mean AT ALL that you're going to be a better player, most likely it would go against you if you got too large. Steroids do not help your hand-eye/optical focal coordination. They decrease your range of motion and your flexibility if you get too large, which would be detrimental to your game.

Which is more detrimental for the game, a player for supposedly taking a drug compared to a player being a racist or beats there wife? I saw the latter. Bonds was good for baseball, and so were McGwire and Sosa, they revived the game with that magical summer of '98, people watched the game again because of them, they saved baseball. Remember, most of this is all acqusations.

It's funny how everyone gives a crap about ballplayer's getting caught and not allowing them in the Hall or whatever, but for NFL players, no one gives a damn for failed substance abuse and performance ehancing test failures. But I guarantee the large profile NFL players will get in the Hall who have gotten caught. I mean heck, Ray Lewis and Dante Stallworth killed a man, what was the punishment? Lewis a slap on the wrist, and Stallworth avoided jailtime or had a few weeks with other stipulations. And players get more punishment for taking a drug, that's funny.

But my stance is look past the character and what they did as a person, and focus on what they did on the field, which is what the Hall is about. Bonds, A-Rod etc were dumb to take drugs, they were easily going to be the best ever in the game or close to it without them.

True, the steroids mostly speed recovery. Which is exactly what makes it help build strength for an athlete who trains.

When things were coming out I asked someone I knew who was a wrestler/bodybuilder (classic wrestling, not TV wrestling) about steroids.
He said that the aid in recovery was the key. Typically someone needs downtime in training, heavy weights one day speed the next, or a couple days of weight followed by a couple light days. The muscles get damaged and get rebuilt a bit bigger and stronger. But it takes time, and overdoing it makes you weaker.
But with steroids the recovery is fast enough that someone can train hard every day. So the benefits of the workouts are at least twice as fast. Some stuff also lets the rebuilt muscle be much stronger, so a combination leads to a lot of mass and strength very quickly.

The downside is that once a person lays off the stuff they're going to be injury prone since now the workouts do far more damage than normal recovery time can account for. Nearly all the main users had a lost year with maybe a second "off" year after as they got hurt and readjusted to being normal again. And a rash of those happened in the year or two leading up to the testing program. still more came as the program was begun although the first year was very weak testing.

It's not possible to fail a test that isn't taken.

Steve B

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by steve B

True, the steroids mostly speed recovery. Which is exactly what makes it help build strength for an athlete who trains.

When things were coming out I asked someone I knew who was a wrestler/bodybuilder (classic wrestling, not TV wrestling) about steroids.
He said that the aid in recovery was the key. Typically someone needs downtime in training, heavy weights one day speed the next, or a couple days of weight followed by a couple light days. The muscles get damaged and get rebuilt a bit bigger and stronger. But it takes time, and overdoing it makes you weaker.
But with steroids the recovery is fast enough that someone can train hard every day. So the benefits of the workouts are at least twice as fast. Some stuff also lets the rebuilt muscle be much stronger, so a combination leads to a lot of mass and strength very quickly.

The downside is that once a person lays off the stuff they're going to be injury prone since now the workouts do far more damage than normal recovery time can account for. Nearly all the main users had a lost year with maybe a second "off" year after as they got hurt and readjusted to being normal again. And a rash of those happened in the year or two leading up to the testing program. still more came as the program was begun although the first year was very weak testing.

It's not possible to fail a test that isn't taken.

Steve B

Good points, it certainly does help with recover and I certainly looked at that route when I got injured. But regardless if you take steroids, doesn't make you better. Matt Lawton, Chuck Knoblauch, it did nothing for them. You still need to have the God given skillsets, and steroids don't change your genetic code or your muscle type fibers, so you still need to be able to see the ball and hit the ball. Does not help optical focal or hand eye coordination.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Good points, it certainly does help with recover and I certainly looked at that route when I got injured. But regardless if you take steroids, doesn't make you better. Matt Lawton, Chuck Knoblauch, it did nothing for them. You still need to have the God given skillsets, and steroids don't change your genetic code or your muscle type fibers, so you still need to be able to see the ball and hit the ball. Does not help optical focal or hand eye coordination.

I used to have a lot of the same arguments as you, but over time I realized I was just being hopeful, because I didn't want to believe steroids were really changing the game.

If the precipitous drop in power numbers of the top guys the last few years isn't an indication, I don't know what is.

Just looking back at McGwire. He went from having debilitating back issues in Oakland, to hitting towering 600 foot homers on a regular basis in St. Louis.

That just doesn't happen. I can forgive him if he used steroid treatment to try to get his back healthy as a medical issue..............hell, that's what any civilian on the street would do, rather then suffer through a lifetime of back pain.

I think it's pretty plain, that he went and took it to the next level after that. Started using stuff a bit more sophisticated and harder to track then the garbage Canseco was allegedly shooting him up with in Oakland, whether it's HGH, Testosterone or whatever.



Not necessarily bad for the body.........but not so great for what we consider the sanctity of the sport.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

To hitting towering 600 foot homers on a regular basis in St. Louis.

That does not happen, ever at all, no one hits a bomb 600 ft on a regular basis, not even in BP. But I get the jist of what you're saying. They did a test to say, for example 'let's say with steroids, for power on HR's we would add 15 feet or so.' So they looked at the HR's of Bonds etc to see if his still would have gone out or not, and very very few were questionable. There is no scientific evidence to support this, just a theory.

But, I will say again, you still need to be able to hit the ball no matter how much drugs you take.

[David W]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Good points, it certainly does help with recover and I certainly looked at that route when I got injured. But regardless if you take steroids, doesn't make you better. Matt Lawton, Chuck Knoblauch, it did nothing for them. You still need to have the God given skillsets, and steroids don't change your genetic code or your muscle type fibers, so you still need to be able to see the ball and hit the ball. Does not help optical focal or hand eye coordination.

I was on steroids this spring (prescribed for a torn tendon, prior to surgery this summer). Initial diagnosis was tendonitis, I could not run without limping and having it swell up. I got a steroid shot from the doctor and within 8 hours I was playing basketball, with no pain. This would last for 2-3 weeks, then it would swell. Got a second steroid shot, playing softball, basketball, and soccer - no pain.

That is the benefit of steroids, quick recovery from injuries, including serious ones like mine where the outside tendon in the foot was torn in half and required surgery in June which has taken 5 months to recover from.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by David W

I was on steroids this spring (prescribed for a torn tendon, prior to surgery this summer). Initial diagnosis was tendonitis, I could not run without limping and having it swell up. I got a steroid shot from the doctor and within 8 hours I was playing basketball, with no pain. This would last for 2-3 weeks, then it would swell. Got a second steroid shot, playing softball, basketball, and soccer - no pain.

That is the benefit of steroids, quick recovery from injuries, including serious ones like mine where the outside tendon in the foot was torn in half and required surgery in June which has taken 5 months to recover from.

Cortisone?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

[QUOTE=steve B;1057015]It's not possible to fail a test that isn't taken./QUOTE]

False, if one is not taken, there is not one to fail.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by David W

Luis Gonzalez and Brady Anderson having historic seasons......

I wondered about those guys as well, but it's not unprecedented: Davey Johnson had a phenomenal power year back before steroids, and Ryan Braun did pretty well this year, presumably drug-free. Hack Wilson also seemed to power-peak over a very short period.

So as far as assuming they all did it, I don't think we can do that. But of course, the HOF voters can.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I wondered about those guys as well, but it's not unprecedented: Davey Johnson had a phenomenal power year back before steroids, and Ryan Braun did pretty well this year, presumably drug-free. Hack Wilson also seemed to power-peak over a very short period.

So as far as assuming they all did it, I don't think we can do that. But of course, the HOF voters can.

On the pitching side Steve Stone had a Cy Young season out of nowhere, and then vanished immediately.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I wondered about those guys as well, but it's not unprecedented: Davey Johnson had a phenomenal power year back before steroids, and Ryan Braun did pretty well this year, presumably drug-free. Hack Wilson also seemed to power-peak over a very short period.

So as far as assuming they all did it, I don't think we can do that. But of course, the HOF voters can.

Yes Brady and Gonzo certainly do raise some eyebrows, and Jose Bautista if you were to throw out the past two seasons and just have his first breakout season.

It's looking pretty clear something helped, but with Jose, he made some major major adjustments at the plate, and kudos to Chad Mottola for that, Jose owes him almost every cent of his paycheck.