Barely OT: ESPN Ranking Greatest Players

[WWGjohn]

When I saw they included all the "roid & HGH" players, I dismissed the whole project.

John

[packs]

To me if this list is based on pure ability and talent Ken Griffey Jr. is the second best baseball player of all time behind Ruth.

I'm very surprised that Rube Waddell and Dazzy Vance were both excluded from the Top 50. When Waddell played he was the most dominating pitcher to ever play Major League baseball. And Vance was just as dominating. How many guys lead the league in strikeouts 7 years in a row?

[EvilKing00]

Griffey at 34 is a joke, he should be way closer to the top 20

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Griffey at 34 is a joke, he should be way closer to the top 20

i don't agree, I love Griffey but his batting average was never that good, his walks were so-so, and as great as he was in the 90s he only won one MVP. Not a top 20 of all time by any means in my view. Maybe the 6th best CF of all time behind Cobb Mays Speaker Dimaggio and Mantle.

[oldjudge]

Steroids or no steroids I think Cobb should be ranked number three (if not higher). Remember, the people who saw both Cobb and Ruth gave Cobb more HOF votes (and it wasn't like Cobb was loved). I think Bonds is rated way too high, Clemens too high(and I have always been a huge Roger Clemens fan), Mantle too high, Hornsby way too low. My order would be:

Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, Hornsby, Johnson, Gehrig, Wagner, Williams, Henderson, .........

[Peter_Spaeth]

Top ten nonpitchers, taking roid stats at face value: Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Williams, Bonds, Musial, Aaron, Gehrig, Wagner, Dimaggio.

[ynnek4]

"I never saw anyone like Ty Cobb. No one even close to him. He was the greatest all time ballplayer. That guy was superhuman, amazing." - Casey Stengel

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Steroids or no steroids I think Cobb should be ranked number three (if not higher). Remember, the people who saw both Cobb and Ruth gave Cobb more HOF votes (and it wasn't like Cobb was loved). I think Bonds is rated way too high, Clemens too high(and I have always been a huge Roger Clemens fan), Mantle too high, Hornsby way too low. My order would be:

Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, Hornsby, Johnson, Gehrig, Wagner, Williams, Henderson, .........

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by ynnek4

"I never saw anyone like Ty Cobb. No one even close to him. He was the greatest all time ballplayer. That guy was superhuman, amazing." - Casey Stengel

+1...love him or hate him, he was absolutely incredible.

[bender07]

Originally Posted by WWGjohn

When I saw they included all the "roid & HGH" players, I dismissed the whole project.

John

+1

[z28jd]

The problem with that thinking on the "roid" players is who can you positively confirm never did anything that is now against MLB rules? The answer is 100% absolutely no one that has played since the 70's and then before that, we all have heard the stories about how easy it was to get pills. Basically, if you could walk into the clubhouse, you could get amphetamines in the 60's. So unless you want to do a list of only pre-1950 players, then you're going to have to include everyone who has played. Just because someone like Jeter or Larkin didn't get caught, doesn't mean they didn't do it, so don't pretend like 10-15 people are guilty and everyone else was clean during an era with no rules in place against it.

Thinking that way, I have no problem seeing a list of the top 100 players pre-1950, definitely would be more interesting than this list.

[michael3322]

Totally agree. What's the point of such a list with the juicers? Some of their descriptions don't even mention the steroids (eg. Mark Steroid McGwire, Manny Suspended for Steroids Ramirez)Really?

Chipper Jones is better than Jackie Robinson? Really?

Bagwell was better than Frank Thomas? Really?

Biggio is the 90th best ballplayer in history? Really?

How can anyone take this list seriously?

[packs]

Frank Thomas is a guy I think is criminally overlooked. He was incredible in his peak years.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by packs

Frank Thomas is a guy I think is criminally overlooked. He was incredible in his peak years.

I would agree, I think the years/partial seasons he lost to injuries hurt his legacy quite a bit. The only offensive player who was anywhere near him in the 90's was Griffey.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even with lots of extra points for being a third baseman, I can't see Schmidt -- a .267 lifetime hitter -- in the top ten of all time. Our lists are very similar other than my having Dimaggio at 10 though.

[Gecklund311]

Originally Posted by michael3322

Chipper Jones is better than Jackie Robinson? Really?

Yes

Chipper Jones was a heck of a hitter for a very long time - after his rookie season, he drove in 100 runs or more the next 8 years in a row. As the capsule on the list says, he is one of only 14 players to ever have a career .300 Avg/.400 Obp/.500 Slg - he's right there with Eddie Murray as the best switch hitter not named Mickey Mantle.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by Gecklund311

Yes

Chipper Jones was a heck of a hitter for a very long time - after his rookie season, he drove in 100 runs or more the next 8 years in a row. As the capsule on the list says, he is one of only 14 players to ever have a career .300 Avg/.400 Obp/.500 Slg - he's right there with Eddie Murray as the best switch hitter not named Mickey Mantle.

As a met fan - and someone who hated chipper his whole career, he was an awesome ball player and a 1st ballot HOF, and IMO better than jackie

[Peter_Spaeth]

This may be the first list I have ever seen that did not rank Johnson as the best pitcher. As great as Mantle was I would not put him as high as 9th, ahead of Gehrig and well ahead of DiMaggio.

[michael3322]

Originally Posted by Gecklund311

Yes

Chipper Jones was a heck of a hitter for a very long time - after his rookie season, he drove in 100 runs or more the next 8 years in a row. As the capsule on the list says, he is one of only 14 players to ever have a career .300 Avg/.400 Obp/.500 Slg - he's right there with Eddie Murray as the best switch hitter not named Mickey Mantle.

You make a good case. I guess I was looking more broadly at what Jackie did for baseball and the country.

From his Wikipedia page...

"In 1999, he was named by Time on its list of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century. Also in 1999, he ranked number 44 on the Sporting News list of Baseball's 100 Greatest Players and was elected to the Major League Baseball All-Century Team as the top vote-getter among second basemen. Baseball writer Bill James, in The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, ranked Robinson as the 32nd greatest player of all time strictly on the basis of his performance on the field, noting that he was one of the top players in the league throughout his career"

[Gecklund311]

That is where people usually differ when it comes to Robinson's place on these kind of lists - some want to give him extra points for historical impact while others like myself will ignore it. To me, his legacy is best seen by looking at the list itself, and seeing Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Bob Gibson, Frank Robinson, etc - players who may not have been on there if not for Jackie Robinson's courage.

I don't know enough about the exact methods James uses to rebut him in an informed way, but if I'm making the list Robinson probably comes in fifth at his position and likely between 60 and 70 overall. Hornsby, Collins, Joe Morgan, and Lajoie would be ahead of him in that order, with Robinson next just ahead of Gehringer and Biggio. Longevity was really Robinson's huge issue, through no fault of his own as he got started late, but he only had a five year stretch where you could call him great.

[glynparson]

10 Mike Schmidt
9 Hank Aaron
8 Lou Gehrig
7 Stan Musial
6 Ted Williams
5 Honus Wagner
4 Willie Mays
3 Ty Cobb
2 Barry Bonds
1 Babe Ruth


I made list based on how they were against contemporaries in my opinion. I dont know what the espn criteria was. If it was who would be thebest in todays game list would be different and i filed to include a single pitcher.PS I actually hated Schmidt growing up but he was a true force for a decade+. And an amazing defensive player as well.