1907-1910 Weiser Wonder - Walter Johnson PC, new to the hobby

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

How interesting. I had always thought this postcard was of later vintage, teens to perhaps even the 20s based on the relatively modern looking graphics. The copyright of 1907 is in the photo itself, though, the original of which was auctioned several years ago by a cousin of mine. It's possible the postcard could date from 1907, after his first partial season with Washington, but could also have been produced anytime between then and Nov 1910, according to this postmark. This could be his rookie card, which I guess is now considered to be the American Caramel card from 1908, although I could be mistaken about that. Great find, in any case. I had Walter's copy of this card at one time, from his scrapbooks.

Thanks Hank. Yes, I saw the original cabinet that had the "1907" in it. I don't know all there is to know about copyright dates but I haven't seen anything to make me think this postcard wasn't printed earlier than 1910. I believe that sometimes copyright dates are in fact used as dating of items. Again, not trying to necessarily feather my own nest but it is interesting no one, I saw, ever bring up the date on the card itself. That was the main thrust of the initial post, as well as to show a really cool postcard .

[Hankphenom]

So the possible time frame is August, 1907 to November, 1910, with no evidence arguing in favor of any particular date within that period. Right?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

So the possible time frame is August, 1907 to November, 1910, with no evidence arguing in favor of any particular date within that period. Right?

Hi Hank
Not being patronizing here but you probably know more than anyone about Walter Johnson. I don't have any info to dispute that span of dates you mentioned. I don't know why a company would produce a card AFTER the player left a team, rather than when he played for it, but it could be solely for publicity/advertising. Without other contradictory evidence I think there is reason to believe it was printed in the 1907 time frame. And as you mentioned, and can well be seen by the postmark, it couldn't have been printed after 1910. Here is another article sent to me by a nice board member...One other thing that makes this postcard a bit more interesting is that it is actually postmarked from Weiser, going to Boise. There seems to be a lot of info pertaining to Walter and those cities.

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-...walter-johnson

.
.

Hope this helps Leon, here's an article on the 1906-07 season in Weiser. Sounds as though the fans in Weiser did not really warm-up to the young man until his phenomenal 1907 season (last game for them July 21, 1907). No references to "Weiser Wonder". I agree it would not make sense to promote a young man who had just left your town. Sounds as though they tried to bribe him to stay, offering him a cigar store downtown.

http://cwcfamily.org/wj/ww2.htm

[Vintageismygame]

My only comment is . . . where is the quarter at?

Matt

[Runscott]

Johnson was a wise man, but a Weiser youth.

[honus94566]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Johnson was a wise man, but a Weiser youth.

It's pronounced "Weez-er", like the band. Just sayin'

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Johnson was a wise man, but a Weiser youth.

Love it!

[bcbgcbrcb]

Great postcard, Leon!

[Jaybird]

nice postcard, Leon. And great find. I agree with some of the others that it makes sense to promote the town you find the most famous person to come from the town and put him on a postcard. Then you sell that postcard with the Weiser Wonder on it.

I can tell you that there was a high school that was a rival to Grant Hill (of NBA Basketball fame) right near where I grew up. Everyone would talk about the school that Grant Hill was from. But that was after he made good in the NBA, not before.

Same thing with Jim Thorpe, PA being founded after he made it big.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe,_Pennsylvania

Happens a lot in sports when the player makes it big and the home town then claims them.

I'm sure many postcards are written well after the date that they were written but in my (limited) experience, I've seen the majority of postcards written around the date they were issued (within the year?) Very unscientific, I know, but that has been my experience.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

Hope this helps Leon, here's an article on the 1906-07 season in Weiser. Sounds as though the fans in Weiser did not really warm-up to the young man until his phenomenal 1907 season (last game for them July 21, 1907). No references to "Weiser Wonder". I agree it would not make sense to promote a young man who had just left your town. Sounds as though they tried to bribe him to stay, offering him a cigar store downtown.

http://cwcfamily.org/wj/ww2.htm

That's my article. Here's a link to the full piece, with intro, etc.
http://cwcfamily.org/wj/ww0.htm

As for the point about not promoting Johnson after he left town, I don't believe they would have been promoting him UNTIL he had left town and begun making a name for himself in Washington, at which point he would have become the biggest thing to ever come out of there and worth promoting. There's no doubt in my mind that this postcard was issued after Johnson had "made good," as they used to call it, in the American League. Of course, he did that almost immediately.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

That's my article. Here's a link to the full piece, with intro, etc.
http://cwcfamily.org/wj/ww0.htm

As for the point about not promoting Johnson after he left town, I don't believe they would have been promoting him UNTIL he had left town and begun making a name for himself in Washington, at which point he would have become the biggest thing to ever come out of there and worth promoting. There's no doubt in my mind that this postcard was issued after Johnson had "made good," as they used to call it, in the American League. Of course, he did that almost immediately.

I don't know Hank. He was some really big news in Weiser, as you well know, and I would think they might have wanted to capitalize on his stardom at any time after 1907..... And actually, and this might not be correct, but it's there, baseball-reference has him as being on Washington, at least a little bit, in 1907, 1908, 1909, (all of the years in question here). During those years on Washington he had a combined W-L of 32 and 48, so capitalizing on that record seems strange. To me it seems whomever put this out might have wanted to capitalize on his Weiser stardom and not his less than stellar play in Washington during that period. I certainly appreciate your ongoing participation in a fascinating discussion. Thank you so much.

Who knows, maybe another PC will pop up with an earlier postmark and this date can be put to rest. Until now I think many collectors were dating this postcard quite a bit later.

[honus94566]

Leon, do you know how many known examples of this postcard there are? Do you own the one in the OP? Pretty cool piece, thanks for posting it up.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know Hank. He was some really big news in Weiser, as you well know, and I would think they might have wanted to capitalize on his stardom at any time after 1907..... And actually, and this might not be correct, but it's there, baseball-reference has him as being on Washington, at least a little bit, in 1907, 1908, 1909, (all of the years in question here). During those years on Washington he had a combined W-L of 32 and 48, so capitalizing on that record seems strange. To me it seems whomever put this out might have wanted to capitalize on his Weiser stardom and not his less than stellar play in Washington during that period. I certainly appreciate your ongoing participation in a fascinating discussion. Thank you so much.

Who knows, maybe another PC will pop up with an earlier postmark and this date can be put to rest. Until now I think many collectors were dating this postcard quite a bit later.

There's almost no chance this postcard was made during his time at Weiser, in my opinion. He was never called "The Weiser Wonder" during that time, but WAS called that almost immediately thereafter in Washington and elsewhere around the American League. And despite his deceptive 5-9 record in 1907, he was considered in many quarters a "Wonder" from the very start of his career. He had the 4th-best ERA in the American League at 1.88 and finished 2nd behind Waddell in SO/IP. He finished every game he started except his first, and pitched two consecutive shutouts toward the end of the year. Five of his losses were by 1 run for a 49-102 team. Turn those into victories and he would have been 10-4, not a bad first two months in the big leagues. It's entirely possible for this postcard to have been produced sometime in the latter part of 1907, the town capitalizing on the nickname he had often been called beginning with his debut on August 2. Or it could have been made at any time in the years following, up to late 1910. Regardless, Leon has brought us significant new information about a "WONDERful" (sorry, couldn't resist) card.

[Eric72]

For starters, I agree completely with those who think this is a great card. From what I have been able to determine thus far, it is most likely an extremely scarce issue. I have seen mention of no more than three known examples here, and would not dispute that number at this point in time.

I also thank those who weighed in with comments regarding my opinions on it (along with its newer, white-bordered counterpart) and hope that I am making a positive contribution to this conversation.

I fully understand that pinpointing exactly when it was issued has the potential to be quite important and, as a result, have been doing a bit more research on the topic. Along the way, I have found two things which piqued my interest. If anyone can shed more light on these, I would be most grateful.

First, according to an older listing by Sotheby’s, this card was produced in June of 1907. I am unsure as to how they deduced this and would like to know the board’s opinion here. Granted, this appears to be the same signed version which was later offered in Goodwin's 2010 auction; however, a link to the Sotheby's info appears below.

http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogue...08385.html/98/

Also, I was looking through some old Net54 threads and found this:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=120189&page=2

I have reached out to the person who left post #20 and I am trying to gather more information on the photo posted there. If anyone else might be able to provide insight as to where it came from, it would be greatly appreciate it.

Thanks to all for reading through a long post. I sincerely hope I am not bothering anybody by trying to discover more about this tremendous postcard and attempting to ascertain, with greater certainty, when it was issued.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Bicem]

Wouldn't surprise me if Sotheby's just made up that date based on the copyright date.

Here's the auction link to the cabinet photo Eric...

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=65860

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Wouldn't surprise me if Sotheby's just made up that date based on the copyright date.

Here's the auction link to the cabinet photo Eric...

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=65860

Jeff,

Thanks for the link. I have yet to look into it thoroughly; however, shall enjoy learning more about the cabinet card. Hopefully, along the way, I will be able to glean a bit of info regarding Leon's Postcard. They certainly appear to have been created from the same photograph.

I also appreciate hearing your take on Sotheby's. Unfortunately, given some of the Auction House inaccuracies I have seen discussed here recently, it does seem possible that the date was nothing more than a guess on their part. It is strange that they zeroed in on a particular month without supporting evidence, though. Perhaps I am naive; however, that seems a touch reckless on their part.

In any event, I sincerely thank you and truly appreciate your help.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Wouldn't surprise me if Sotheby's just made up that date based on the copyright date.

Here's the auction link to the cabinet photo Eric...

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=65860

I agree. You can't use an auction house as a base for factual information. Sometimes they do their research and their information is based on fact but often it is just a claim made to make the best possible sale.

[Hankphenom]

Sotheby's DID make up that date of June 1907. That was my consignment, and I certainly didn't give them that date, which I would have known to be almost certainly erroneous. But at least Sotheby's did better than PSA, whose "expert" pegged it as 1901 when 30 seconds of research would have revealed Johnson to have been 13 years old!

[benchod]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know why a company would produce a card AFTER the player left a team, rather than when he played for it, but it could be solely for publicity/advertising.
.

So has your opinion changed on the Reccius Wagner?

Nice pickup and great postcard. Congrats

[packs]

There are a lot of sets with cards printed of players who no longer play for the team or even the league. The Mayo set features retired players, for example. Along with Play Ball and that strip set that has Mathewson in it long after he'd retired. I realize these aren't postcards though. But it would be a lot to brag about if you had Walter first, especially if you're an amateur team.

[prewarsports]

He was a big deal in Weiser, but I live 30 miles from Weiser, it is not a big city by any means. Half the small cities in America had a "Weiser Wonder" type phenom around 1905-1907 (obviously not as good as Johnson but to their small towns at the time there were similar type players). If this postcard had been produced IN WEISER then you would see almost all of them with Idaho postmarks right? How many have ever been found with Idaho postmarks? Zero to my knowledge. SO this is a postcard that had National Distribution. Who would bother to make a postcard Nationally from a rookie who hadn't made it big yet? Nobody would unless it was issued locally in Idaho which there is no way it was given the circumstantial evidence. So who would make a Nationally distributed postcard of a ballplayer celebrating his humble roots? Someone who wanted to capitalize on that players superstardom. So it is a sure bet that this was made after Johnson attained his stardom and was attempting to show his humble roots with a 1907 photo that they had to issue with a copyright date on it of when it was taken.

To me this is a settled issue and I have done a lot of research into the subject as I have visited Weiser on many occasions and live in the area. There is simply no way this postcard was produced in the Weiser area or Idaho in general, its a 1909-1910 postcard at the earliest until someone finds one with an earlier postmark.

Rhys

[Leon]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

He was a big deal in Weiser, but I live 30 miles from Weiser, it is not a big city by any means. Half the small cities in America had a "Weiser Wonder" type phenom around 1905-1907 (obviously not as good as Johnson but to their small towns at the time there were similar type players). If this postcard had been produced IN WEISER then you would see almost all of them with Idaho postmarks right? How many have ever been found with Idaho postmarks? Zero to my knowledge. SO this is a postcard that had National Distribution. Who would bother to make a postcard Nationally from a rookie who hadn't made it big yet? Nobody would unless it was issued locally in Idaho which there is no way it was given the circumstantial evidence. So who would make a Nationally distributed postcard of a ballplayer celebrating his humble roots? Someone who wanted to capitalize on that players superstardom. So it is a sure bet that this was made after Johnson attained his stardom and was attempting to show his humble roots with a 1907 photo that they had to issue with a copyright date on it of when it was taken.

To me this is a settled issue and I have done a lot of research into the subject as I have visited Weiser on many occasions and live in the area. There is simply no way this postcard was produced in the Weiser area or Idaho in general, its a 1909-1910 postcard at the earliest until someone finds one with an earlier postmark.

Rhys

Actually the latest it can be is 1910, not the earliest. Just going by the evidence we have and not conjecture. I think anytime between 1907 and 1910 is feasible until I see more evidence other than theory. I also think it could have been distributed from the Weiser area. This one shown was certainly mailed from there. Most people weighing in thought this was from the teens until now. When/if one is found with a 1908 postmark the argument will change again.

[ValKehl]

I suspect that we won't have to wait very long to see another example of this WaJo PC, hopefully one with a readable postmark, in a major auction. The recent Legendary Auction had a special grouping devoted to Kent Feddeman's fabulous Washington Senators collection, and it contained some great WaJo PCs, but not a "Weiser Wonder" PC. I believe the final installment of Feddeman's collection will be presented in Legendary's first 2013 auction, and I'll be surprised if it doesn't contain a "Weiser Wonder" PC, because Doug Allen told me that Legendary tried to split Feddeman's collection equally as to types of items between the two auction installments.
Val

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benchod

So has your opinion changed on the Reccius Wagner?

Nice pickup and great postcard. Congrats

I don't remember my opinion on the Reccius, but unless I missed it, there was never a definitive date put onto the card. Without that it's hard to say. The dating of it is the key, obviously.

Thanks for the kind words on the pick up. Question for those more knowledgeable than myself. Where do you think this would end up price-wise, in a public auction?

[Bicem]

It's a great postcard regardless on the production date. I'd put the over/under at $4k at auction.

[Hankphenom]

5 K, more or less. Would be #1 on the Weiser Wonder registry. Wait a minute: possible rookie card, make that 5-10 K.