Brooklyn CDV

[oldjudge]

Agreed Phil. But then would an established auction house reject it? They are not in the business of refusing good (and potentially valuable) consignments.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I wonder if the fact that it was rejected by Leland's was brought to SGC's attention upon submission? My guess is that it was not.

That being said, I feel confident that SGC would be able to identify a fraudulant card as they are experts in the field, especially when reviewing one as rare and potentially valuable as this one.

"Established Auction Houses" have taken consignments which I have deemed to be fake and still continued to run the auctions even after this info was disclosed to them.

[Saco River Auction]

The staff at Saco River Auction have been hearing speculation and discussion in this forum and others regarding the authenticity of this card. I felt it was important to share all the information known on this card and its origin so that all of you can make an informed decision on the validity of this rare and unique card.

This card was found in Washington County Maine by a guy that buys used stuff. He was picking through a wood shed that held old furniture and coke bottles and a cardboard box on the floor caught his attention. In the box was some books and papers and a photo album. He bought a few chairs, the coke bottles and the box full of papers and the photo album. The guy brought the photo album home and cleaned all the mold off it and began to inspect the photos. He found a tin type from the civil war that showed Alcatraz Prison which he sold on ebay, and numerous other photos from the 1860's that were also sold on ebay. In the album was a curious cdv of a baseball team. He did minimal research and listed it on ebay. He was bombarded with emails and offers and decided to pull it down.

He then decided to sell the card to a gentlemen who he picks with, that guy then sent the card to Lelands for possible consignment. Lelands kept the card for two months and then mailed it back(no other communication like a courtesy call) was made and the card was mailed back stating that it was fake, made by an inkjet printer. The "expert" at Leland's claimed that the period mount it is attached and claimed the dot pattern of the mount is indicative of a inkjet printer and no mention of the actual image was made.

We were aware of this info and determined that the card needed to be examined by the best grading/authentication company around for 19th century sports items and images. We submitted the card for examination by SGC and they spent the better part of 4 days researching and examining this card. They are the experts and in speaking to the head examiner he is 100% sure that this is a authentic 19th century Albumen Process CDV depicting the 1865 Brooklyn Atlantics Team. SGC stands by their expertise and take pride in their work. They told me that they always approach a rare item with a large amount of skeptism until the evidence removes any doubt in their mind.

We intend to proceed without doubt or reservation in the sale of this rare and unique item as the evidence of its authenticity is not in question in our minds. We have also had what we consider an expert in 19th century photography, examine the card prior to sending it out and he is convinced that the item is right as rain.
Please keep in mind that Leland's is an excellent auction company with world class knowledge and experience, however no one in any auction house is an absolute expert in every catagory of items that they sell. That is why we defer to experts like SGC and PSA and JSA to assist us in verifying the items that we sell. It is obvious to us that this one slipped by the staff at Lelands and it is unfortunate for them as they lost a large potential commission, but this does not detract from the validity of The Saco River Auction Company or our upcoming sale. We are an established auction house in all phases of items and although we are not in a big city and have not been around for 50 years, we known how to manage and handle valuable items, and we get great prices for our consignors.

Thank You For Your Time and Interest
Troy Thibodeau
Manager/Auctioneer
Saco River Auction

[oldjudge]

I spoke to someone in your shop today and suggested that you get an opinion from Paul Messier, a Boston conservator who is an expert on albumen photographs. Will you be doing that? One other question-- the right side of the CdV looks like there is an area to the right of the photograph that once had something attached to it( looks like a glue line parallel to the edge of the current photograph). Do you know if Leland's thought that there was originally a larger photograph attached to the mount and then that photograph was removed and replaced by the current one? Looking at a scan is certainly a tough way to evaluate a piece, which is why I am asking how this area to the right of the photograph looks in person. Thanks for your help!

[oldjudge]

Gary--sorry I missed your post before. I don't know. I guess that you could print a copy from the LOC image. In my mind the real question is if someone could download a copy of the LOC image and print something like an albumen print from it. I find it hard to believe that SGC would think a laser copy is an albumen print. I would feel a lot better if there was some feature in this photo that, due to cropping differences, is not in the LOC photo. However, I can't find anything. Can you?

[oldjudge]

Corey or Barry-- you kow this type of material really well. Do ou have a view?

[prewarsports]

A couple of thoughts

First, if someone was going to go to the trouble and fake this, it seems like they would extend the photo past the marks Jay is talking about to hide them if this was a recycled mount, and trim it tighter on the sides. However back in the 1860's most people hand cut these so authentic CDV's do have weird cuts like this one ALL THE TIME. So that is a good thing.

Second, it would be hard if not impossible to fake the tone of the photo with the fading on the item in question from the crystal clear image on the LOC example. SO thats a good thign too.

Third, the line Jay is talking about is troubling because it absolutely looks like something else was once glued there. Anyone that collects CDV photos will know that the photo itself is VERY thin, see through in fact when held to the light, so it would be almost impossible to reback something like this. Only thought I have on that front is perhaps a label was glued there at one point?

From a scan, it looks good and if it is encapsulated by SGC I would find it hard to believe they could make a mistake this big. However, the line Jay mentioned and the rejection from Lelands are both Red Flags.

Rhys

[benjulmag]

Jay,

I have the greatest respect for the people at SGC and the work they do, but I am concerned that the task of determining whether an image is a period albumen photo attached to a period mount does not fall squarely within their area of expertise. Certainly there are other people out there who would be better qualified to address this question. In addition, the fact that Lelands, an experienced and well-respected auction house that over the years has handled many CdVs, would not accept the consignment of a CdV that if authentic would be as significant a 19th century image as they have ever offered is very troubling. I'm not saying the item is not authentic, but based on the disclosures made I would feel much more comfortable if the item was examined by a recognized expert in both albumen photographs and CdV mounts. I also believe that the auction house should disclose the identity of the person they said examined the item.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Corey or Barry-- you kow this type of material really well. Do ou have a view?

Hi Jay- one rule of thumb is never try to authenticate a piece via a scan. I can offer a few thoughts: when I look at the scan of the LOC piece and see that rich photo quality, and then look at the muddiness of the CdV, it does concern me. Maybe one scan is crystal clear and the other isn't, or maybe there is a real issue. So I would have to have the piece in hand to make any real determination.

I would say based on what has transpired, if I were an interested bidder I would want at least one more photo expert to look at it. There is enough here to warrant it. I respect SGC but this isn't a T206, where they grade a hundred a day. The number of 1860's photographs that cross their desk is small.

[bmarlowe1]

(Never mind my original comment which confused the HoF and LoC images.)

It would be nice to see the item in higher res to see if it shares flaws with the LoC image.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

Lelands kept the card for two months and then mailed it back(no other communication like a courtesy call) was made and the card was mailed back stating that it was fake, made by an inkjet printer. The "expert" at Leland's claimed that the period mount it is attached and claimed the dot pattern of the mount is indicative of a inkjet printer and no mention of the actual image was made.


Thank You For Your Time and Interest
Troy Thibodeau
Manager/Auctioneer
Saco River Auction

Troy, the above comment is in poor taste, and doesn't ring true based on my dealings with Lelands. I hear the 'inkjet printer' comment often when people are describing fakes, but it's generally from ebayers or people who know very little about 1800's photography. In actuality, it wouldn't take someone who is even a half-blind albumen collector two minutes to identify a photograph as having been created by an inkjet printer.

I sincerely hope your comment was an error, and that if someone at Leland's actually used the term 'inkjet' to refer to this photo, that it was either in jest, or your comment about SGC saying it's legit, was a mistake on your part.

There's something very fishy about your story.