Brooklyn CDV

[bigfish]

Kudos to Troy and Saco River for getting two opinions. Folks that are skeptical shouldn't bid. I am sure there won't be a shortage of people wanting this item. Best of luck.

[oldjudge]

Toby-I think you are right that a lot of people will want the item. However, I'm not sure that there are many people, if any, who will want to pay a significant price. I don't know anyone who will go crazy for this item. Do you?

[bigfish]

Hi Jay, hard to predict where this item will go pricewise. A rare item will bring serious interest. I guess we will see once the auction ends. I wouldn't be surprised if the price is strong.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bigfish

Kudos to Troy and Saco River for getting two opinions. Folks that are skeptical shouldn't bid. I am sure there won't be a shortage of people wanting this item. Best of luck.

If I'm ever selling anything that you are skeptical about, please feel free to ask questions. Troy doesn't mind either. The only people that seemed to mind are forum members, which really surprises me - this is a discussion forum and we're talking about a $50,000 collectible.

[yanks12025]

Say it was fake, how would he have printed the image if he doesn't have the negative. And remember the site white Betsy, they showed some items that a forger would do every little detail.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Say it was fake, how would he have printed the image if he doesn't have the negative. And remember the site white Betsy, they showed some items that a forger would do every little detail.

The process of taking a photo of the LOC image would create a new (2nd generation) negative, and he would make a print from this negative. This process would cause a degradation in resolution, in much the same way that xeroxing a document would create a copy of lesser resolution.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Say it was fake, how would he have printed the image if he doesn't have the negative. And remember the site white Betsy, they showed some items that a forger would do every little detail.

One can simply download the medium res scan from the LoC site and there are computer tools available to produce a negative directly from that. If one wanted very high res, a better scan can be ordered for about $75.

It's possible that a forger might want to then deliberately reduce resolution enough to obscure any small flaws or characteristics that might be attributable to the LoC item.

[sb1]

The CDV and auction just got a plug on Fox Business News

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sb1

The CDV and auction just got a plug on Fox Business News

A writer from the Associated Press (AP) registered for our board earlier today. They will probably be doing a story on it too.

[benjulmag]

For those reading all the posts in this thread you know I have been expressing great skepticism as to the authenticity of the Saco River image due to the degradation in resolution compared to the LOC copy. That concern still exists. However, to be entirely fair I feel that should information come to my attention that would argue in favor of the item being authentic, I have a responsibility to present it.

Below is an image of the 1865 Atlantics mammoth plate (photographed from Stephen Wong's book "Smithsonian Baseball"). That photo resides in my collection and is a salt print. It first surfaced in the summer of 1991 when it was sold by the Connecticut auction house Nadeau's. The sister image that accompanied it in the sale was a mammoth plate composite of the 1873 Baltimores (consisting of CdVs of each player with a calligraphed overlay). Both photos were housed in identical period frames and both exhibited considerable aging. I have no doubt as to the authenticity of each image. When I asked the auctioneer where he got them, he responded he recently bought the entire contents of a local estate sale and those two images were part of that estate. The auctioneer claimed they were literally thrown into the deal for little or no consideration.

Why is this relevant? Examination of the background of the 1865 mammoth plate shows it to be essentially identical to the background of the Saco River image, and at variance with the background of the LOC image. So it would seem Williamson did use a vignette process to highlight the players. This match between backgrounds I regard as significant, though not dispositve because a forger could have used the mammoth plate to create his background. In addition, the fact remains that the resolution of the Saco River image is below what one would expect from an original CdV and signficantly less than that of the LOC copy made from the same negative. And I remain perplexed how that can be.

Taking all this into account in my view increases the possibility the Saco River image is genuine. I still feel further testing is warranted and that without it the leap of faith required to be comfortable it is real is more than I would be comfortable taking.

[yanks12025]

I just read a article about it and someone said it will go six figures.

[oldjudge]

LOL, does that count the numbers to the right of the decimal point?

[teetwoohsix]

Link to Fox Sports (AP) write up: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/1...auction-010913

Sincerely, Clayton

[oldjudge]

To me it's amazing how the press picks up a number that an auction house throws out and makes it seem like it is the gospel. If Troy had said a million they would be printing that too. What we have here is an old scarce photograph which, if Corey is right, could be a reproduction of the LOC original, or, if Peter Nash is right, could have come from the NYPL collection( if you get Peter's Halls of Shame email it is in today's edition). I have no idea how valid these concerns are, but that is a lot of questions for a little piece of cardboard to bear and still be advertised in the press as a six figure item. That said, for the sake of SRAs, the consignor, and to add some buzz to the hobby I hope it goes for a gazillion dollars.

[insidethewrapper]

This is really an interesting thread. I don't know much about early photography , but learning on this forum. One question: Have all these early baseball cards and photos etc been donated to the Library of Congress by individuals ? Thanks

[Runscott]

But Jay - haven't you heard? There is a conspiracy theory that skeptics are trying to reduce the value of the card by expressing their concerns about a piece of vintage cardboard, in a vintage cardboard discussion forum

I personally think that the attention that these skeptics have drawn to the card could actually INCREASE the final bid. The original estimate when it was first mentioned here, was around $50,000 I believe. The consignor recently stated that the value had increased to $100,000. Shouldn't the skeptic advertising team get a cut of the difference?

[yanks12025]

"Collectors have also commented that scans of the CDV appear to suggest that the albumen photograph may not have been original to the Williamson Studios mount. Messier’s report did not address this issue and what appears to have been a possible removal of a prior image close to the gilded Williamson identification. Messier removed the card from its SGC-graded holder for his examination and would have been able to determine if the albumen photograph was original to the mount if asked to do so. Messier declined comment on that issue stating he was not authorized by his client to speak beyond what is contained in his written report."

That section is from the haul of shame article. I don't understand why he can't comment on it more besides what's in the report. I know if I was going to be bidding 50-100k I should be able to ask him whatever I want about it after he looked at it. I bet after it sells in feb, it won't be the end up us hearing about it.