Brooklyn CDV

jhs5120 · #1 01-10-2013, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

I have watched the discussions on the board lately, however I have chosen to stay out of it. I am not a collector of baseball cards and this truly is your forum. I have the utmost respect for all of you and I have learned tons from each of you regarding this hobby. There are a few things that I would like to address, and from time to time during the next 4 weeks I may chime in, but this is your forum.

I hired Mr. Messier to refute the claims and findings made by Leland's. At the time Leland's said that the cdv was a modern reproduction created with an inkjet or laser jet printer. They also viewed a dot pattern in the verso that indicated it was also made with the same technology. Mr. Messier was hired by me to determine whether their findings were accurate or not. His findings clearly show that they were not accurate. As I have stated before I did not see the need for the additional testing, as the cost and potential degradation to the card were not worth it.

Mr. Messier was hired by me and I made the decision that he is not to release any further info. This is not based on you all or any potential bidders. This decision was made due to the fact that Peter Nash was hounding him in the days leading up to Mr. Messier's examination. Nash has been hounding him since. Mr. Messier was hired to do the examination. His time is too valuable to be fielding calls from a "reporter". Likewise he does not know any of you, nor does he know who is on the other end of the phone line.

I have invited all of you to come and view the card yourself. For most of you on the east coast this is not an expensive endeavor and can be done in a day. I have a 40 power microscope that the card can be viewed with and I invite you all to bring your own expert. Other than being able to talk to Mr. CH Williamson(the photographer) and asking him if he produced this albumen, there is no way to make you all convinced of this. We are convinced that this is real, this is beautiful and this should bring a nice price on February 6th.

The last thing I would like to address is the figure that the press printed. I came to this number based on three large sports memorabilia auction houses that I called and spoke with about this card. I simply asked them the following question, "If this item was in your auction, what would be your low estimate for your catalogue" The answers from the three auction halls were averaged out this is how we came up with six figures. With a rare and unique item it is difficult to come up with estimates so I figured I would defer to auction house that deal with sports items of this caliber daily.

Again, I would invite any of you to call my cell phone with any questions 207-650-5677

Troy

Well said Troy.

I am no expert in this field, so I won't pretend to be. I am just wondering, Lelands rejected it because they thought it was an inkjet copy - that is where the skeptism is coming from. Troy did everything within reason to disprove that. Yes, there is always some obscure, outside chance that this card (or any for that matter) is a counterfeit, but hasn't he done enough? I trust SGC over Lelands and I certainly trust the expertise of SGC and Messier over any auction house. Enough is enough. I think it's time to put the pitchforks down and enjoy the auction.

yanks12025 · #2 01-10-2013, 09:35 AM

I just have one more question and it's for in general. Say any high priced item is sold and then in acouple months determined it was stolen years ago. So I'd guess the FBI or whoever would take the item back and return to where it was stolen from. So would the buyer get their money back? Then say the seller who didn't know it was stolen spent the money? So what would happen.

GaryPassamonte · #3 01-10-2013, 09:58 AM

Troy,
Given the potential value of this card, the additional cost of testing the paper would not seem prohibitive. This testing would allay doubts about the age of the CdV. The pool of prospective serious bidders for this CdV is small. Excluding any from this group could have a detrimental effect on the final price. If I were the seller, I would not hesitate to bear the expense of reducing existing doubts about the CdV with further testing. Although I agree that you have gone above and beyond what would be normally considered sufficient authentication for this type of item, doubts are in the minds of many in your serious bidding pool for various reasons. Why not remove these doubts?

Saco River Auction · #4 01-10-2013, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yanks12025

I just have one more question and it's for in general. Say any high priced item is sold and then in acouple months determined it was stolen years ago. So I'd guess the FBI or whoever would take the item back and return to where it was stolen from. So would the buyer get their money back? Then say the seller who didn't know it was stolen spent the money? So what would happen.

Hi, this is whats crazy about this whole thing. Are we talking about this being a fake or are we now talking about this thing being stolen? As far as I am concerned the only person claiming this is stolen has zero credibilty and is in fact linked to fraud, deception and forgery himself.....and you all know who I am referring to. When you google a persons name and everything you find is negative, but that same individual spends his time crusading for a hobby that he himself has helped to taint, I give zero credibility to anything he says. We at SRA have never had anything stolen in our hands to the best of our knowledge. We keep meticulous records on every item we buy or take on consignment and we are regularly inspected by Local Law Enforcement and the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms(we have an FFL). We are also under the jurisdiction and regulations of the Maine Auctioneers Board and we have an unblemished record. I am not sure what the ramifications would be if an item was sold at auction and later determined to be stolen. That may be a better question for law enforcement.
One thing I will tell you all and then I am going to stop posting on this site is, this card is not stolen and this card is not a fake. From here you all will have to determine the fate and legacy of this card. We have done out job authenticating it and promoting it. The question now is do you want to own a rare piece of baseball history, or do you not?

Troy

yanks12025 · #5 01-10-2013, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

Hi, this is whats crazy about this whole thing. Are we talking about this being a fake or are we now talking about this thing being stolen? As far as I am concerned the only person claiming this is stolen has zero credibilty and is in fact linked to fraud, deception and forgery himself.....and you all know who I am referring to. When you google a persons name and everything you find is negative, but that same individual spends his time crusading for a hobby that he himself has helped to taint, I give zero credibility to anything he says. We at SRA have never had anything stolen in our hands to the best of our knowledge. We keep meticulous records on every item we buy or take on consignment and we are regularly inspected by Local Law Enforcement and the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms(we have an FFL). We are also under the jurisdiction and regulations of the Maine Auctioneers Board and we have an unblemished record. I am not sure what the ramifications would be if an item was sold at auction and later determined to be stolen. That may be a better question for law enforcement.
One thing I will tell you all and then I am going to stop posting on this site is, this card is not stolen and this card is not a fake. From here you all will have to determine the fate and legacy of this card. We have done out job authenticating it and promoting it. The question now is do you want to own a rare piece of baseball history, or do you not?

Troy

Well like I said in my post, it was in general referring to any high priced piece of memorable sold in any auction.

Matthew H · #6 01-10-2013, 11:59 AM

Does anyone here have a scan of some high quality 19th century albumen forgeries? I've been blissfully ignorant about this stuff and have always assumed stuff that looked real was real.

I guess if this CDV could be fake there could be plenty of fake OJs out there. At the very least, I doubt this CDV was a first attempt, if it is indeed fake.

oldjudge · #7 01-10-2013, 12:34 PM

Troy--will is auction have a reserve?

Saco River Auction · #8 01-10-2013, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Troy--will is auction have a reserve?

Jay This is a no reserve absolute auction.

wonkaticket · #9 01-10-2013, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Troy--will is auction have a reserve?

Surely your 100k bid will cover the reserve Jay.

teetwoohsix · #10 01-10-2013, 12:51 PM

I commend you Troy, for coming on the board and trying to do what you thought was right to put everyone's fears to rest. I know you must be a bit frustrated at this point, as you did have SGC give it their stamp of approval, and then sent it to Messier to clear up the laser/inkjet speculation. I am no one to give any opinion on the item, as I only know what I've learned in this thread, but I myself was under the impression that the remainding issue was with the laser/inkjet thing, and that you did your best to clear this up by sending it to Messier for his opinion, upon the advice of board members.

Please understand that (in my opinion) no one is questioning your ethics, and any speculation about the item is normal amongst collectors. I am the same way about the type of cards I collect. The collectors who collect these types of items spend large amounts of money on them, and just want to be sure beyond a reasonable doubt. Please don't take any of it personal.

I hope interested parties take you up on your offer to come down and check it out for themselves. This may quell their speculation, and give them the confidence to bid on what appears to be a beautiful CDV. Good luck in your auction !!

Sincerely, Clayton

bmarlowe1 · #11 01-10-2013, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Yes, there is always some obscure, outside chance that this card (or any for that matter) is a counterfeit.....

Compare that to the improbability of the find as described.

Leon · #12 01-10-2013, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Compare that to the improbability of the find as described.

Mark- I am not sure he understands how GREAT some of the fraudsters are at their trade. Several in this thread do.

As for the photo, I am not an expert but hope the pitchforks stay out, only in the name of safety. The CDV very well could be perfect with a clean pedigree, I will let others argue that.

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