Brooklyn CDV

Saco River Auction · #1 01-15-2013, 06:12 PM

I have spoken with the owners at length and they are not willing to budge on this issue and here are the reasons. They do not believe that the testing is warranted, they do not feel that the testing is safe, and they feel that they have gone above and beyond what has ever been undertaken by any auction hall.

First, the testing that has been done and the opinions of the established experts in both sports collectibles and 19th century photography are rock solid in our opinion. It is unheard of for auction halls to go to multiple experts in order to make bidders feel better. SGC is an established expert in sports collectibles, specifically the older stuff and Paul Messier is a world renowned leader in his field of antique photography. Both have authenticated this item, and Paul's quoted stance, gained today and shared with you all, further solidifies our position that the item we are selling is real and is what we say it is.

The testing that Messier lists in his report is testing that the auction hall is not willing to support. As I have said all along, we consider it a damaging test. Whenever you alter(even in the smallest way) an antique item, it is not longer right and as it was. In business you have to weigh risk vs. reward and in our opinion the risk of the item being damaged or destroyed or altered, is not worth the reward of confirming what we already know which is that this is an authentic item. When Paul Messier inspected the binding agent under heavy magnification, he could clearly see a distinct sheen to the agent which is uniquely associated with the sheen caused by the binding agents used in authentic 19th century albumen prints. This is caused by the chemical makeup of that agent. All examples in his collection showed the same distinct sheen. I mentioned these things in conversation with him today and he agreed that this sheen is the key element in the binding material. To allow a customer to potentially damage or destroy a valuable item, to quantify results that have already been determined by a photography expert, is foolish and risky. We have no doubt that the results of such as test would show that this is an authentic albumen print from the 19th century, but we are not willing to risk damage to the item.

Lastly, we have been signing up a steady stream of bidders on this item as their fears have been removed by the work we have done on this item. If you do not feel comfortable enough to bid on this item then I guess you won't be able to bid. I think it would be unfortunate that you will miss out on a fantastic piece of history, but you gotta follow your own instincts on this.

Aside from that I hope I have answered your questions the best I can.

Troy

martindl · #2 01-16-2013, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

I have spoken with the owners at length and they are not willing to budge on this issue and here are the reasons. They do not believe that the testing is warranted, they do not feel that the testing is safe, and they feel that they have gone above and beyond what has ever been undertaken by any auction hall.

First, the testing that has been done and the opinions of the established experts in both sports collectibles and 19th century photography are rock solid in our opinion. It is unheard of for auction halls to go to multiple experts in order to make bidders feel better. SGC is an established expert in sports collectibles, specifically the older stuff and Paul Messier is a world renowned leader in his field of antique photography. Both have authenticated this item, and Paul's quoted stance, gained today and shared with you all, further solidifies our position that the item we are selling is real and is what we say it is.

Troy

Troy,
I appreciate your continued updates and efforts.

I think it's a very bold statement to say the owners have gone above and beyond any other auction house, when there are other auction houses who would authenticate this item 100% via testing. I hear the 'damage' rationale, but 'other' auction houses routinely perform forensic testing to determine an items' validity.

Whether it is unheard of for auction houses to go to multiple experts to make bidders feel better is beyond my scope of knowledge. However, your responsibility is to your consigner and in that regard it's very common to get multiple experts' opinions to try to reach the maximum return for that consigner.

I assume the consigner been advised that there remain questions as to the authenticity of the card and if they were to pay for additional testing and the item is deemed to be real, their return would be potentially higher. If I were the consigner and believed everything I've been told thus far, I would pay for the additional testing myself and remove any doubts.

Again, thanks for the updates and good luck with the auction.

Runscott · #3 01-16-2013, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

SGC is an established expert in sports collectibles, specifically the older stuff

That is incorrect.

I hate to get involved in this discussion again, but this has been bugging me for a while.

Going to a vintage photography expert such as Paul Messier, was the correct move. You've mentioned your fears that the item will be damaged or destroyed by forensic testing. Mr. Messier is an avid 19th century albumen collector (as you have alluded to). Why would he offer tests of 19th century albumens that would be damaging or destructive? Did he tell you that these tests could result in damage?

Saco River Auction · #4 01-16-2013, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

That is incorrect.

I hate to get involved in this discussion again, but this has been bugging me for a while.

Going to a vintage photography expert such as Paul Messier, was the correct move. You've mentioned your fears that the item will be damaged or destroyed by forensic testing. Mr. Messier is an avid 19th century albumen collector (as you have alluded to). Why would he offer tests of 19th century albumens that would be damaging or destructive? Did he tell you that these tests could result in damage?

Here are Messier's Terms and conditions....

1. Client has delivered to Messier certain photographs (the �Photos�) as described on page 1 and illustrated and by this
reference incorporated herein for all purposes. Client hereby represents and warrants to Messier that Client has all legal right
and power to authorize Messier to conduct the Services (as described in Part 2 below) with respect to the Photos. Client shall
remain liable for the risk of loss to the Photos.

2. Client has engaged Messier to conduct the following analytical services (the �Services�) with respect to the Photos to
determine the nature of the materials and the methods of manufacture of the Photos as described on page 1. The client has
waived and disclaims all claims and causes of action against Messier with respect to any damage caused to the Photos by the
performance of the Services.

If it is not possible to damage items during a forensic examination, then why is it in the terms and conditions.

Now as a business that is charged with selling an item that does not belong to us, why would you take a risk. If this card is damaged during the testing, who foots the bill to the consignor. Who calls the consignor and tells him that his once very valuable piece is now damaged and worthless. These are true concerns that none of you are willing to consider, yet you want us to make rash decisions or do forensic testing that we do not feel is warranted and is potentially dangerous to a historic piece. You can discuss this all you want, but the bottom line is this...terms and conditions are put forth based on incidents that have happened in the past, whether with Mr. Messier or other forensic examiners....so the risk is real, otherwise there would be no need for that kind off language in the terms and conditions.

Troy

Runscott · #5 01-16-2013, 12:56 PM

As you know, what you just quoted was standard stuff that is put in any contract that involves an item leaving the hands of the owner. I assume you agreed to those terms before ANY testing was done.

Paul Messier hasn't said anything to the contrary, so other than his accidentally dropping the item, or having some sort of seizure and losing control of his equipment, forensic testing is done all the time and is safe (e.g-the Mona Lisa, etc.)

Runscott · #6 01-16-2013, 01:07 PM

Question to collectors on this board:

If someone won any photographic item at auction, sent it to Mr. Messier for image and binder testing, and the item came back as a forgery, what are your legal rights? If Mr. Messier is the same person who tested the item in the first place, and he stated explicitly what additional tests could be performed, I think I know the answer.

If the answer is what I think it is, then no one has anything to worry about.

smokelessjoe · #7 01-16-2013, 01:32 PM

Scott,

What scares me about your ideas regarding this is that if I follow your logic than I cannot trust or believe For Certain that any of the photos YOU own are real. Unfortunately at this time it is a fact that all of the photos you own could be fake. That is a fact and will remain a fact until you have this fiber analysis/testing done on everyone of them.

At this point, if you have any or put any photos up for sale I cannot buy from you. It's nothing personal - I just cannot trust you.... I need forensic proof

Scott, please hit me up if you ever do decide to sell something that is not fake... Of course include the proper documentation that I mentioned above - otherwise happy hunting!

Shawn

oldjudge · #8 01-16-2013, 01:45 PM

Shawn- other than the fact that this is a rather expensive item, and Scott is not now trying to sell anything,

bmarlowe1 · #9 01-16-2013, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Scott,
What scares me about your ideas regarding this is that if I follow your logic than I cannot trust or believe For Certain that any of the photos YOU own are real. Unfortunately at this time it is a fact that all of the photos you own could be fake. That is a fact and will remain a fact until you have this fiber analysis/testing done on everyone of them.
Shawn

Shawn - Spending many dozens of hours or much more (or paying someone else a large amount of money) to acquire the needed materials and then create a convincing forgery does not make economic sense for low or medium priced photos. Thus materials testing for such photos is not usually needed. Visual inspection by an experienced person is enough.

It does make economic sense to create an expensively made forgery for a $50k plus photo. In such cases materials testing should be expected by the collecting community. That fact that this may not be the view of most everyone is an indication of why collectors sometimes get what they deserve. Corey's lawsuit should be required reading.

Runscott · #10 01-16-2013, 05:32 PM

...

ScottFandango · #11 01-18-2013, 11:18 AM

was REA given a crack at selling this?

mcadams · #12 01-19-2013, 02:45 PM

1) One thing NOT emphasized much on this thread was anyone's views of Lelands. I don't know how you could read all of the posts here and not have a slighly lowered opinion of the team there. I get that no one is perfect, but the opinions offered by Lelands staff as to why they chose not to accept the item appear to be somewhat comical at this point, especially in light Messier's comments.

2) Troy- I wish all Auction Houses were as responsive as you were. Your efforts are to be applauded.

3) Troy- There was some particularly good advice here that you brushed aside. There was a path toward an A+ job, but you didn't go there for some reason. It was clear that no one here agreed that damage was even remotely possible with forensic testing on the mount. Had you taken that step, you could have really created a magnificent reputation for this item and your increased the prestige of your auction house going forward.

4) Troy- I think Leon was trying to provide some helpful advice regarding re-gluing SGC holders (We don't do that....ever.) While he was trying to be helpful, you got very defensive, and in my opinion lacked a little professionalism in your response. The collector's here, like you, want the auction to generate great results. No need to take everything so personally.

5) I am VERY curious to see how REA, Bill Goodwin, SCP, Greg Bussineau, or others would respond if they were asked to take a similar item to Messier etc. for further authentication after it had been slabbed. I hope Troy's persistence was widely noticed and has set a new standard for Auction House responsiveness.

Saco River Auction · #13 01-29-2013, 11:07 AM

The card is at SGC being put in a new holder. It will be back on Weds January 30th.

Troy

benjulmag · #14 01-16-2013, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

Here are Messier's Terms and conditions....

1. Client has delivered to Messier certain photographs (the �Photos�) as described on page 1 and illustrated and by this
reference incorporated herein for all purposes. Client hereby represents and warrants to Messier that Client has all legal right
and power to authorize Messier to conduct the Services (as described in Part 2 below) with respect to the Photos. Client shall
remain liable for the risk of loss to the Photos.

2. Client has engaged Messier to conduct the following analytical services (the �Services�) with respect to the Photos to
determine the nature of the materials and the methods of manufacture of the Photos as described on page 1. The client has
waived and disclaims all claims and causes of action against Messier with respect to any damage caused to the Photos by the
performance of the Services.

If it is not possible to damage items during a forensic examination, then why is it in the terms and conditions.

Now as a business that is charged with selling an item that does not belong to us, why would you take a risk. If this card is damaged during the testing, who foots the bill to the consignor. Who calls the consignor and tells him that his once very valuable piece is now damaged and worthless. These are true concerns that none of you are willing to consider, yet you want us to make rash decisions or do forensic testing that we do not feel is warranted and is potentially dangerous to a historic piece. You can discuss this all you want, but the bottom line is this...terms and conditions are put forth based on incidents that have happened in the past, whether with Mr. Messier or other forensic examiners....so the risk is real, otherwise there would be no need for that kind off language in the terms and conditions.

Troy

Troy,

What about the following?

The winning bidder shall have the option at the conclusion of the auction to have the CdV sent to Mr. Messier for the additional testing. If the winning bidder declines to accept this option, then he/she will have no further recourse against Saco Auctions if the item is later shown to be a fake. If, though, the winning bidder exercises the option, upon Saco Auctions being paid for the item it will send it to Mr. Messier for the additional testing. If this testing determines the item is a fake through the presence of substances that were not commercially available in the 19th century, Saco Auctions will refund the purchase price to the winning bidder as well as be responsible for the additional testing expenses. If the testing does not so establish the item is a fake, then the winning bidder shall be responsible for paying the additional testing expenses and agrees to accept all risks associated with the testing.

So under this scenario Saco Auctions incurs no risk the additional testing might damage the item unless it is proven to be a fake. Then, even if the testing damages the CdV, what will have been damaged is something with no value to start with.

Saco River Auction · #15 01-16-2013, 02:25 PM

The ownership has declined to do anything further or to enter into any side contracts or agreements with the buyer. As we said in our post yesterday, this has ramifications beyond this one item and we are not willing to set a precedence on this item, which could involve us entering into side agreements for additional forensic testing on thousands of items every year. Yes this is a unique item and very valuable, but we sell lots of valuable items. It is up to the buyer to know what he or she is buying. Most auctions have the same rules. We have invited all of you to Maine to look at the thing yourselves....bring an expert, spend as long as you need with it, this is work that is your responsibility as buyers, to ensure that you feel good about your purchase. It is still available for viewing anytime. We suggest that if your are going to bid on this, it is worth the drive or flight to do this. Also for my signed up bidders, Paul Messier is going to be available for phone calls, through me, next week. He will be delighted to answer any questions you may have. This is all we are willing to do on this. Despite what has been written, we have in fact taken extreme measures on this and have logged hundreds of man hours on this project. We have done our part.

Troy

oldjudge · #16 01-16-2013, 02:37 PM

Troy-at this point "looking" at the card does no good. There is no reason for anyone to go to Maine. If you can't take the card out of the holder and have it tested, there is nothing left to determine. The photo is albumen and we know what the card looks like. The question remains as to whether the binder is period. "Looking" through a plastic holder won't tell you that.

Jim-with all due respect, if you are tired of this thread, don't click on it.

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