Probstein123 Still amazed he is in business

[Peter_Spaeth]

Since an ebay seller cannot see a max bid it is impossible to shill in the strictest sense of the word namely placing a bid forvthe purpose of bumping up the high bid. This leaves two other practices to discuss. One is bidding up incrementally until the high bidder is topped then retracting. This is clearly wrong and should not be tolerated. The second is placement of a safety bid by the consignor or a proxy which to me is akin to a hidden reserve and next to impossible to police. It might be cleaner if there was a reserve but i wont fret it.

[lsutigers1973]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Since an ebay seller cannot see a max bid it is impossible to shill in the strictest sense of the word namely placing a bid forvthe purpose of bumping up the high bid. This leaves two other practices to discuss. One is bidding up incrementally until the high bidder is topped then retracting. This is clearly wrong and should not be tolerated. The second is placement of a safety bid by the consignor or a proxy which to me is akin to a hidden reserve and next to impossible to police. It might be cleaner if there was a reserve but i wont fret it.

Feel free to go through Rick's feedback and look at bid history on any random auction over $100. Most have at least one bidder with 10-15 bid retractions in last 6 months with a high percentage of Rick's auctions bid on.

In 12 years on eBay I have had a total of 2 retractions.

Rick, I think the reality is that once people consign something to you, they can then bid on it via themselves (or if you actually monitor that) via proxy.

Now at least on ebay people can semi-see who is bidding, analyze patterns, and try and sniff out the shills.

The reason why AHs offebay don't allow any transparency is because this same thing would happen, people would see some funny business and then call it out.

I submit that it's actually a good thing that people are as vigilante as they are with your auctions, and frankly I wish ebay would have FULL transparency like they used to.

The way things are now, I think it's up to the masses to police auctions they are interested in and to speak out if something seems off. Rick can't do that himself, and I don't think it's fair to expect that he does.

Furthermore, I think it's commendable that Rick takes the time to actually post on these forums and react to the concerns of people. That's more than many other big time sellers do, and I think it speaks volumes to his credibility and willingness to keep things as clean as he can.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

Furthermore, I think it's commendable that Rick takes the time to actually post on these forums and react to the concerns of people. That's more than many other big time sellers do, and I think it speaks volumes to his credibility and willingness to keep things as clean as he can.

Really Paul??? This is the first thread he has posted on actually trying to defend himself. There has been numerous of them also. I think all this constant attention has started to hurt business a bit and he's trying to save face. Problem is you can't deny that any bidder with 48% and 108 retractions is not up to something.

I have purchased from the Rick in the past and not had any problems. I will say that I feel some cards could have gone cheaper but I paid what I wanted to get them. I stopped bidding with him after noticing some issues like what we are discussing. I never said a word, but with all this and the blatant disregard till now I will say I won't ever buy via ebay from him. I am sure he won't want my business at a show either and so be it then. More $ for the next guy

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Really Paul??? This is the first thread he has posted on actually trying to defend himself. There has been numerous of them also. I think all this constant attention has started to hurt business a bit and he's trying to save face. Problem is you can't deny that any bidder with 48% and 108 retractions is not up to something.

I have purchased from the Rick in the past and not had any problems. I will say that I feel some cards could have gone cheaper but I paid what I wanted to get them. I stopped bidding with him after noticing some issues like what we are discussing. I never said a word, but with all this and the blatant disregard till now I will say I won't ever buy via ebay from him. I am sure he won't want my business at a show either and so be it then. More $ for the next guy

Andrew- I am sure that Rick will not lose any sleep tonite after reading your post.....

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Andrew- I am sure that Rick will not lose any sleep tonite after reading your post.....

Probably not and neither will I.

Kevin at least your high end PSA cards warrant close to or at the grades given.

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Really Paul??? This is the first thread he has posted on actually trying to defend himself. There has been numerous of them also. I think all this constant attention has started to hurt business a bit and he's trying to save face. Problem is you can't deny that any bidder with 48% and 108 retractions is not up to something.

I have purchased from the Rick in the past and not had any problems. I will say that I feel some cards could have gone cheaper but I paid what I wanted to get them. I stopped bidding with him after noticing some issues like what we are discussing. I never said a word, but with all this and the blatant disregard till now I will say I won't ever buy via ebay from him. I am sure he won't want my business at a show either and so be it then. More $ for the next guy

Well, first what I am saying is that at least he's communicating. I know other sellers wouldn't even dare try to tread these waters regardless of how the negativity might be effecting their business.

As for the shilling, yes if there is nefarious business going on that is brought to his attention he should certainly take it seriously.

It can't be expected, however, that he will police every single auction. That's why, like I said, it's up to those interested in his items to do some detective work themselves, and then when they have reason to be suspicious, to bring it up with Rick in a professional manner.

I think you and I are on the same page, but it's about everyone working together, not just placing the blame and responsibility on one man's shoulders.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

Well, first what I am saying is that at least he's communicating. I know other sellers wouldn't even dare try to tread these waters regardless of how the negativity might be effecting their business.

As for the shilling, yes if there is nefarious business going on that is brought to his attention he should certainly take it seriously.

It can't be expected, however, that he will police every single auction. That's why, like I said, it's up to those interested in his items to do some detective work themselves, and then when they have reason to be suspicious, to bring it up with Rick in a professional manner.

I think you and I are on the same page, but it's about everyone working together, not just placing the blame and responsibility on one man's shoulders.

Paul, I have no idea if anyone's shilling Rick's auctions, and I'm not going to waste my time analyzing all this crap, but....

If a seller is running a crooked business (shilling his own auctions), then if you politely contact him to report "nefarious activity", how do you expect him to respond?

Stop typing, it was a rhetorical question - here's the answer: if an ebay business is shilling and you bring it to their attention, they will deny it. If you report it to ebay, ebay will do nothing, as any action on their part impacts their profit. If you talk about it here, again - nothing will happen because if you cost the seller business through not participating in his auctions, he will simply up his shilling to make up for the lost revenue.

Give it up - go play in the Mastro thread.

Originally Posted by Runscott

Paul, I have no idea if anyone's shilling Rick's auctions, and I'm not going to waste my time analyzing all this crap, but....

If a seller is running a crooked business (shilling his own auctions), then if you politely contact him to report "nefarious activity", how do you expect him to respond?

Stop typing, it was a rhetorical question - here's the answer: if an ebay business is shilling and you bring it to their attention, they will deny it. If you report it to ebay, ebay will do nothing, as any action on their part impacts their profit. If you talk about it here, again - nothing will happen because if you cost the seller business through not participating in his auctions, he will simply up his shilling to make up for the lost revenue.

Give it up - go play in the Mastro thread.

Well Scott you're clearly not trying to actually solve anything here, you just sound like an angry person lashing out at the hot topic of the day.

There is plenty that can be done about bad things, but having a defeatist attitude like you seem to have doesn't help. When you start to make clearly irrational arguments, it also makes you look foolish and you lose credibility.

So, if you're actually trying to help, then by all means ... otherwise, stand aside and let the adults get to work.

[ngrow9]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

Rick, I think the reality is that once people consign something to you, they can then bid on it via themselves (or if you actually monitor that) via proxy.

Now at least on ebay people can semi-see who is bidding, analyze patterns, and try and sniff out the shills.

The reason why AHs offebay don't allow any transparency is because this same thing would happen, people would see some funny business and then call it out.

I submit that it's actually a good thing that people are as vigilante as they are with your auctions, and frankly I wish ebay would have FULL transparency like they used to.

The way things are now, I think it's up to the masses to police auctions they are interested in and to speak out if something seems off. Rick can't do that himself, and I don't think it's fair to expect that he does.

Furthermore, I think it's commendable that Rick takes the time to actually post on these forums and react to the concerns of people. That's more than many other big time sellers do, and I think it speaks volumes to his credibility and willingness to keep things as clean as he can.

Care to address my post from earlier?

Originally Posted by ngrow9

I realize this is probably a fruitless response, but one of the greatest downside risks of shilling in any auction system is that you outbid the field and get stuck with your own item. Should that happen on eBay, the actual out of pocket loss is rather minimal, basically just the listing fees (if any) and portion of the final price kept by eBay (around 9%). However, the odds of winning your own lot on eBay are quite low, because you can always retract a bid. So despite any transparency, there is little risk to shilling on eBay.

Conversely, should you outbid the field in an AH auction, your out-of-pocket loss will be much more significant, as you will owe both the hefty consignment fee as well as the bidder's premium. You could easily end up losing 1/3rd of the value of the item in the end. Moreover, it is much harder (if not impossible) to retract a bid.

Ergo, even though eBay may be a little more transparent, overall I believe the risk of shilling is greater on eBay than at an AH for the simple reasons that the risk of winning your own lot is much lower due to retraction, and the cost of winning your own lot is much lower than at an AH.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by lsutigers1973

Feel free to go through Rick's feedback and look at bid history on any random auction over $100. Most have at least one bidder with 10-15 bid retractions in last 6 months with a high percentage of Rick's auctions bid on.

In 12 years on eBay I have had a total of 2 retractions.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed this

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Since an ebay seller cannot see a max bid it is impossible to shill in the strictest sense of the word namely placing a bid forvthe purpose of bumping up the high bid. This leaves two other practices to discuss. One is bidding up incrementally until the high bidder is topped then retracting. This is clearly wrong and should not be tolerated. The second is placement of a safety bid by the consignor or a proxy which to me is akin to a hidden reserve and next to impossible to police. It might be cleaner if there was a reserve but i wont fret it.

Could you come up with a different word for "safety bid"? Starting a .99 "no reserve" auction then placing a "safety bid" is a f---ing scumbag move and doesn't deserve such a cute name.

[Republicaninmass]

Member since: Jan-09-04 0 bid retractions