Should Beckett be grading these paper cut outs?

danmckee · #1 02-15-2013, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by honus94566

It doesn't have a numerical grade, just a slab to say it is authentic and not a copy. I don't have a problem with it whatsoever.

Grading companies aren't bound by anything. They can listen to their customers and do whatever they want to make their customers happy and grow their business.

Grading companies aren't bound by anything? They can just do whatever they want? WOW! I completely misunderstood what their purpose is then.

ullmandds · #2 02-15-2013, 10:09 AM

I also am fine with authentic...not all that different from a page out of a significant comic book...I guess? Do they even grade those? I'd guess they do!

A number grade I'd have a problem with.

danmckee · #3 02-15-2013, 10:13 AM

I can't read the flip, does it state an authentic page from a book or magazine? I guess that wouldn't be too bad then a new collector would understand they were only getting a small piece of a full item.

Ok looks like I am way off base here. Maybe NASA grading should come back.

Matthew H · #4 02-15-2013, 10:14 AM

It's in a slab so it's a card now... You can't call it a page anymore.

Leon · #5 02-15-2013, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danmckee

I can't read the flip, does it state an authentic page from a book or magazine? I guess that wouldn't be too bad then a new collector would understand they were only getting a small piece of a full item.

Ok looks like I am way off base here. Maybe NASA grading should come back.

It only says "Spalding Guide" on it Dan. I don't think you are way off at all and I definitely see your arguments. Like I said too, there is just so many other things to combat that are so much worse. It's like a cop getting someone for going 58 mph in a 55 mph zone, to me.

novakjr · #6 02-15-2013, 10:26 AM

I don't have too much of a problem with it. Aside from the fact that it probably encourages cutting up the guides. I have a handful of these type of pages(only one slabbed). They can be great, for players that you otherwise may not be able to find something of. Like Sockalexis on the 1902 Lowell page, and the Moonlight Graham on the 1907 Scranton page. I also have one of the 1894 Cleveland team that used many of the JUST SO photos(it's a great item for Young and Burkett). Do I like that they've been cut out? NO! They make for some nice smaller display pieces though..

Fred · #7 02-15-2013, 10:29 AM

I'll call it going 65 in a 55.... 58, really???

Runscott · #8 02-15-2013, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by novakjr

I don't have too much of a problem with it. Aside from the fact that it probably encourages cutting up the guides.

To some of us that is more than an "Aside", and you can remove the word "probably".

peterb69 · #9 02-15-2013, 11:14 AM

It does sadden me that somebody ripped out the page from a guide just to try and make a buck (this case many bucks).

Beckett should have notated that is is a "page from" the guide.

But I don't like that the seller calls the item a "card" in the description.

sbfinley · #10 02-15-2013, 10:50 AM

I own a couple of these. As a full time student, it is an affordable way for me to acquire and display a period piece of players such as Ed Delehanty or the famed 1890's Baltimore squad. I can understand Dan's displeasure about destroying an intact item in this manner, but as a counter argument it affords collectors without a major budget an avenue to 19th century players and teams. (The price of that New Orleans page, however, is ridiculous.)

Clutch-Hitter · #11 02-15-2013, 10:54 AM

What if it was in a PSA holder?

tschock · #12 02-15-2013, 11:01 AM

The only minor quibble I have with both the Beckett authentication and the listing is that it is not a guide but a page from the guide. I would like to see Beckett add "Page" at the end of their description on the first line of text on the slab. Similarly for the seller listing the piece. It is not a "card" but a "page" from the guide. Other than that minor point, I don't think there is any deception of misrepresentation of what it is. (I know, that wasn't the original question/concern)

I have a problem "destroying" complete books, but don't have (as much) of a problem pulling pages from incomplete material. So if the guide was already in pieces, pages missing or eaten, etc, I can stomach the removal of additional pages a bit more. Though my "problem" with this directly proportional to the scarcity of an item.

Clutch-Hitter · #13 02-15-2013, 11:03 AM

So somebody could send this to Beckett for cross-over:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOE-JACKSON-...item2c6394d8e6

jcmtiger · #14 02-15-2013, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tschock

The only minor quibble I have with both the Beckett authentication and the listing is that it is not a guide but a page from the guide. I would like to see Beckett add "Page" at the end of their description on the first line of text on the slab. Similarly for the seller listing the piece. It is not a "card" but a "page" from the guide. Other than that minor point, I don't think there is any deception of misrepresentation of what it is. (I know, that wasn't the original question/concern)

I have a problem "destroying" complete books, but don't have (as much) of a problem pulling pages from incomplete material. So if the guide was already in pieces, pages missing or eaten, etc, I can stomach the removal of additional pages a bit more. Though my "problem" with this directly proportional to the scarcity of an item.

Yes, card in the seller description is the only problem I see. But, I would not buy it.

Joe

Bored5000 · #15 02-15-2013, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

Yes, card in the seller description is the only problem I see. But, I would not buy it.

Joe

That was why I had to look it up on Google for more information. I was pretty sure it was just a book page, but the "card" description kinda threw me at first. I always follow Shoeless Joe cards, and I knew there was no "card" like this of him out there.

Runscott · #16 02-15-2013, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbfinley

I own a couple of these. As a full time student, it is an affordable way for me to acquire and display a period piece of players such as Ed Delehanty or the famed 1890's Baltimore squad. I can understand Dan's displeasure about destroying an intact item in this manner, but as a counter argument it affords collectors without a major budget an avenue to 19th century players and teams. (The price of that New Orleans page, however, is ridiculous.)

You are right. Chopping up a Ty Cobb bat and selling the splinters as part of a card also makes that bat more accessible. In fact, why don't we just do that with EVERY collectible? We could chop up all the T206 Honus Wagner cards while we're at it.

...in a perfect world where I owned all the scissors

steve B · #17 02-15-2013, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

You are right. Chopping up a Ty Cobb bat and selling the splinters as part of a card also makes that bat more accessible. In fact, why don't we just do that with EVERY collectible? We could chop up all the T206 Honus Wagner cards while we're at it.

...in a perfect world where I owned all the scissors

I'm also against cutting up stuff to "make it more accessible" That's never made sense to me.
I'd love to own a Ty Cobb bat someday. It will probably never happen.
I'd be ok with owning a Ty Cobb bat card. And could probably get one if I wanted it. But I don't think my level of excitement would be anywhere near finding a whole bat that I could afford.

The flip side is stuff that's already in really bad condition. Like maybe a Cobb bat that spent a few decades in the basement of barn that flooded regularly.

As far as books and magazines go, I bought a bunch of magazines from the former publisher of a nostalgia magazine. He also did a whole book of collected christmas stories and art from the same magazines. Some of what I got were in decent condition, others had been cut up already to make the book and magazines.
There's also a bunch of partial magazines. I'm not really all that against cutting up a magazine that had no covers when he got it and then had an article and a couple ads cut out years before I got it.
One of them sells for about $3 in nice condition. But the ad from 1920 specifically aimed at winning the womens vote sold for something like 20-30.
(If you want a bunch of stuff like that just Email me and I'll make you a great deal

)

And the batch of stuff he had, thousands of magazines, rotogravure sections, and books. aside from the roto sections the only bit of sports stuff was a spalding guide cover. Just the cover, and in poor condition at that. I looked for hours for the rest of it

Steve B

Runscott · #18 02-15-2013, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

The flip side is stuff that's already in really bad condition.
....
There's also a bunch of partial magazines. I'm not really all that against cutting up a magazine that had no covers when he got it and then had an article and a couple ads cut out years before I got it.

Steve, what you say makes perfect sense. We discussed this at length ten years ago when the infamous 'Libertyforall' seller was parting out any Spalding or Reach Guide he could get his hands on. He participated in our discussions and didn't impress anyone.

But he did learn something. Now, if you read the item descriptions for the pages from old books, you'll find that many of them state that the seller only cuts up books that are so beat up that they aren't of value whole. They are lying, but it makes the bidder feel better about bidding.

sbfinley · #19 02-15-2013, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

You are right. Chopping up a Ty Cobb bat and selling the splinters as part of a card also makes that bat more accessible. In fact, why don't we just do that with EVERY collectible? We could chop up all the T206 Honus Wagner cards while we're at it.

...in a perfect world where I owned all the scissors

That is a fair argument. In return I would argue that two are far from same in scope. A Spalding Guide, while still very much a part of the hobby's history, is minimal in magnitude. A bat once swung by Ty Cobb, used as a weapon to procure base hits by the most intense character to every play the game, is a relic of the game in its finest sense and should be preserved for the prosperity of the game's history. Collectors have entire runs of Spalding Guides resting on dusty shelves that are but a footnote of their entire collection. Collectors that own a personal artifact from Cobb, Ruth, or Gehrig know that it an important part of the history of baseball. Everything is relative, find me a dealer that will trade a Cobb gamer for a few paperbacks and I'm first in line.

Runscott · #20 02-15-2013, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbfinley

That is a fair argument. In return I would argue that two are far from same in scope. A Spalding Guide, while still very much a part of the hobby's history, is minimal in magnitude. A bat once swung by Ty Cobb, used as a weapon to procure base hits by the most intense character to every play the game, is a relic of the game in its finest sense and should be preserved for the prosperity of the game's history. Collectors have entire runs of Spalding Guides resting on dusty shelves that are but a footnote of their entire collection. Collectors that own a personal artifact from Cobb, Ruth, or Gehrig know that it an important part of the history of baseball. Everything is relative, find me a dealer that will trade a Cobb gamer for a few paperbacks and I'm first in line.

I didn't say they were equal - you are responding to a straw man, not me.

I don't normally talk from the straw man's perspective, but Scott was implying that neither should be chopped up.

ethicsprof · #21 02-15-2013, 12:30 PM

I remember the AAA fiasco from aeons ago, when we discussed it on this board and elsewhere. My problem with slabbing the cut-outs is that many of the
newbies low on funds and knowledge of the hobby's best wares will buy these
catalogue and magazine pieces and think they are really getting something
valuable to the vintage card hobbyist. I think Beckett would do well to continue
doing what it does well and step away from this 'new' activity.
all the best,
barry

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