The T206 "Exclusive 12" of the 460-Only series

[atx840]

Hey Ted,

My understanding of why these twelve are seen more often then others with these backs is that the group of twelve is broken down into smaller groups that are likely used in combination with a base group of 28 players across a 34 card sheet. Two rows of seventeen.

It is also likely that these twelve could have been printed multiple times across a sheet taking up more then one space. Giving a higher ratio compared to the base 28 group.

Take Group 1 below and split it across two 14 slot rows A&B and combine them with any of the Group 2, 3 & 4 players. For every unique 14A card there are 2 Duffy's.

14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford

For Red Hindu T206resource has a possibility of 46 combinations for this back. They can be broken down into the following groups of 28+12+6. The base 28 group can then be combined with any of the 6 base groups in any combination to form a 34 player sheet.

If the SuperPrints pop reports are lower with these backs it's possible they were used less frequently with the base 28 cards then your Exclusive 12.

From what I can tell, the entire 460 series backs can be broken down to multiple 28 base groups to combine with these three 6 base groups to form a 34 card sheet. Some backs use the Exclusive 12, some only use the SuperPrints (BL460) and some use both. Some use this base 28 or one of the other 28 groups.

Red Hindu groupings.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by atx840

Hey Ted,

My understanding of why these twelve are seen more often then others with these backs is that the group of twelve is broken down into smaller groups that are likely used in combination with a base group of 28 players across a 34 card sheet. Two rows of seventeen.

It is also likely that these twelve could have been printed multiple times across a sheet taking up more then one space. Giving a higher ratio compared to the base 28 group.

Take Group 1 below and split it across two 14 slot rows A&B and combine them with any of the Group 2, 3 & 4 players. For every unique 14A card there are 2 Duffy's.

14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford

For Red Hindu T206resource has a possibility of 46 combinations for this back. They can be broken down into the following groups of 28+12+6. The base 28 group can then be combined with any of the 6 base groups in any combination to form a 34 player sheet.

If the SuperPrints pop reports are lower with these backs it's possible they were used less frequently with the base 28 cards then your Exclusive 12.

From what I can tell, the entire 460 series backs can be broken down to multiple 28 base groups to combine with these three 6 base groups to form a 34 card sheet. Some backs use the Exclusive 12, some only use the SuperPrints (BL460) and some use both. Some use this base 28 or one of the other 28 groups.

Red Hindu groupings.

Amazing !! This post makes it all come together for me. Thank you.

Sincerely, Clayton

[atx840]

The 460 series when viewed in these groups makes sense for the most part. A good questions raised already is how do we get 4x more Exclusive 12s in this. I am trying to wrap my head around the combinations to give the %s Ted has noted.

Ted, do you see any of the 28 I listed as being extra low pop?

I can provide examples for some of the more complicated backs, which have multiple prints to consider.

Again, I am still wrapping my head around this.

[teetwoohsix]

" Again, I am still wrapping my head around this."

You are doing a great job at it, far better than I am Keep up the great work. I am a bystander at this point, just trying to make everything fit together.

Sincerely, Clayton

[tedzan]

Chris

Impressive graphic; however, the premise is too convoluted. For starters, it does not explain why the Exclusive 12 are LENOX no-prints.....or, PIEDMONT 460/42 no-prints.
Or, why the Exclusive 12 are the only SWEET CAP 460/42 subjects printed from the 460-only series. I'd go on with more arguments to support my Exclusive 12 theory, but
it has become tedious trying to convince you (and others) of my theory.

Pardon me for reiterated this for the umpteenth time....the printing press track (or width) of 18" (or 19") was the standard machinery that American Lithographic operated
to print their smaller (or medium) size jobs. It conformed with the standard size (18" x 24") paper (or cardboard) sheets of that era.

While we have no card strips of T206's or T205's to confirm this....there, are 11 (or 12) per row card strips of E-cards that have been found. The printing press machinery
used to print E-cards (E91, etc.) of that era (1908-1912) was very similar as those used to print the T-cards.

You can continue to dig up such convoluted concepts to justify your "magic 34" argument. But, your "17-cards" per row premise is incongruent with any lithographic press
size known of that time period for printing T-cards or E-cards whose dimensions were approx. 1 7/16" x 2 5/8".


Best regards, and if we ever dig up an old T206 sheet that supports your contention of "17-cards" per row (as opposed to my "12-cards" per row theory)....I will fly up to
Canada and buy you dinner at your favorite expensive restaurant.


TED Z

[atx840]

Ill take that bet Ted.

Let me share some more data which is till, just theoretical but please check it out and consider it as I have with your 12 sheet theory. I can not explain every situation but a good majority of the 460 series breaks down into 34 possible groupings.

I can also show why certain cards are excluded form certain backs. You need to see it holistically. Lenox is simple,

Here is BL460.



Here is P460F25 in two prints, the second run I believe swapped out Ames for Dougherty (just my theory based on looking across all 460 brands).

Each 28 group can combine with the 6 subgroup as well as the 21 subgroup combined with the 13 subgroup = 34

[atx840]

Here is another neat one Ted

Lets take Johnny's favourite subsets the Yellow Brown scraps.

These yellow browns are interesting as they have F30 backs but never were intended to be printed with this back. They don't exist. The reason is they were supposed to be overprinted with F42 but never made it that far.

If you look at the series we find several 28 groupings used, one is the example I used called Group1A. Take that group and combine it with the 6 SuperPrints you get 34 cards. 28/28 are found as a yellow brown scrap, no exceptions to any other F30,F25, F42 player out there. Out of the 6 SuperPrints 5 have been found as a yellow brown scrap, missing only Chase Dark Cap.

It makes sense that all sheets using this combination of F30 were used for the F42OP run and one full sheet ended up being scrapped to what we now get as the yellow brown scrap subset.

[tedzan]

Chris

That's just a partial list of the 350/460 subjects with the SWEET CAP Factory 30 backs (that were not issued).

All 63 subjects from this series are found with the SWEET CAP Factory 42 overprint. So, I do not understand your point of referring to a partial list of the color-less scraps ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Chris

A picture is worth a 1000 words............









TED Z

[toppcat]

Ted that top row almost looks panoramic...

[atx840]

SC560F30 has 52 cards in it. All of them are found in the 109 F42OP subset.

Left over are 57 F30 cards that were overprinted but never released into the wild as F30 cards. This breaks down into two 28 print groups with one card being swapped out at a second printing (Ames with Dougherty) giving you 57 cards.

These two 28 base groups are used multiple times throughout the 460 series for different backs in combination with the SP and your Exclusive 12.

One of those groups of 28, not coincidentally is made up of ALL the known yellow brown scraps + the 6 SuperPrints.

NONE of the other 28+Dougherty cards have been found in a scrap form. This leads me to believe that the scraps that are found are linked, likely on one sheet.

[tedzan]

Chris

Basically speaking, your premise falls apart on these two fronts......

1st.....28 color-less subjects from the 350/460 series may exist for now, but there will be more found in the future.

2nd.....surveys show that the 6 super-prints were Double-Printed on sheets of PIEDMONT 460 F25 & F42, POLAR BEAR, etc.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Scot Reader in his book "Inside T206" estimates that approx. 1.6 Million T206's are presently in circulation. If this is so (and, I think it is a fair guesstimate) then, we could
reasonably extrapolate that American Lithographic (ALC) printed and issued at least 10 - 20 Million T206's.

To produce this volume of cards in just 2 years, ALC must of printed T206's in sheets of 100+ cards. To think of card sheets comprised of anything less than 100+ cards is
absolutely impractical (and, I've been guilty of this with my suggestion of 36-card sheets). Other's here have suggested 34-card sheets, which are even more preposterous.

Now, two independent sources have informed us that the printer's standard size cardboard sheet was 18" x 24" (circa 1908-1911 era). Furthermore, research has indicated
the track width of lithographic printing presses of that era were designed to accomodate these standard size sheets. Presented here are the Exclusive 12 subjects filling out
an entire 18" x 24" standard sheet comprising of 108 cards.















TED Z

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Scot Reader in his book "Inside T206" estimates that approx. 1.6 Million T206's are presently in circulation. If this is so (and, I think it is a fair guesstimate) then, we could
reasonably extrapolate that American Lithographic (ALC) printed and issued at least 10 - 20 Million T206's.

To produce this volume of cards in just 2 years, ALC must of printed T206's in sheets of 100+ cards. To think of card sheets comprised of anything less than 100+ cards is
absolutely impractical (and, I've been guilty of this with my suggestion of 36-card sheets). Other's here have suggested 34-card sheets, which are even more preposterous.

Now, two independent sources have informed us that the printer's standard size cardboard sheet was 18" x 24" (circa 1908-1911 era). Furthermore, research has indicated
the track width of lithographic printing presses of that era were designed to accomodate these standard size sheets. Presented here are the Exclusive 12 subjects filling out
an entire 18" x 24" standard sheet comprising of 108 cards.















TED Z

Hi Ted,

Is this how you suppose that they sheet would be laid out? If so, doesn't this seem to contradict the fact that we see many more same name top bottom miscuts than those with two different names on top & bottom? It seems to make more sense that each player was laid out vertically in rows of 3. Perhaps with 5 subjects vertically per sheet, which would make for a length of 15 cards (perhaps by 10 cards width-wise for sheets of 150)? I haven't even scratched the surface in terms of the amount of research that you have done, just throwing out an idea...

Thanks,

Steve