Need Help with Bucky Harris from Permier Auction

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Jim stated that those particular photos are generally fake, yet you are still sending it in...why sir?

Auction house guarantees to pass JSA, so either, I get my money back or it passes and I should be able to sell and recoup my money.

[yanks12025]

I don't get why bother asking for opinions on here then. Jim said these are regarded as fakes, yet you rather take JSA or PSA opinions and then if it passes you'll just sell it. When it may be a fake.

[shelly]

I opened a thread for that same reason. If you are going ask don't insult us by saying ok now I am going to ask someone I trust. Why waste your time or ours?

[yanks12025]

I've asked Jim, Shelly, etc for their advice on autos. But I trust our members opinions more then PSA or JSA.

[thecatspajamas]

Taz, I can see where you're coming from, being limited by the AH to second opinions from a particular authenticator only (which is a whole other debate in itself).

In the future, if you're bound by AH rules to submitting it elsewhere to get a refund, maybe wait to get the results back from JSA or whoever before posting it here for opinions though? That way it becomes more of a debate of JSA's evaluation of the auto rather than a slap to those who render their opinion here only to hear that you're still sending it off to a TPA.

[drc]

Jim's response was rhetorically ambiguous. He may have implied, but never said it was fake.

I'm not criticizing Jim at all, just saying I could see how the original poster might not have realized he was getting a Yes or No answer. In fact, I first read it to mean that Jim thought the authenticity could reasonably be debated.

[travrosty]

it's the old, "thanks for telling me it's fake but if i can get it to pass psa or jsa i can resell it and get my money back and pass the fake onto someone else wrapped in a fancy coa from an unnamed authenticator."

fake is fake, psa or jsa cert on a fake does not make it real, it just justifies reselling it in some peoples minds. he said these are generally considered fakes.

spence or grads opinion makes it real then? what is jim, chopped liver?

Jim, start charging 100 dollars and then they will believe you.

[tazdmb]

First, I never meant to insult Jim, or anyone else on this board. To be honest, as I mentioned earlier, I have no idea if the autograph is truly fake or not. I see Ron's book said most of these are fakes and to be honest, I can't make heads or tails of Jim's answer.

I respect Jim enough that if he, or certain other board members, would said it was real, I would have saved my money on JSA. I am only sending to JSA in the hopes of getting a refund. I thought I did my due diligence when I put the bid in when I was out of town, as the signature looks comparable to other authentic examples. Should I have done better research prior to bidding, yes. However, at this point, I am reluctant to throw nearly $100 (more once JSA is done with it) away without trying get my money back, which is what I am willing to do if Jim/Richard/Shelley can conclude it is fake, regardless of JSA's response.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

I don't get why bother asking for opinions on here then. Jim said these are regarded as fakes, yet you rather take JSA or PSA opinions and then if it passes you'll just sell it. When it may be a fake.

apparently...if it passes JSA, "It's a fake he can live with" to quote another regular contributor

[cubsfan-budman]

I get the impression that he agrees it is fake, but he can't get his money back from the auction house based on Jim's word on this message board. The OP has said as much a couple of times. If it's fake, hopefully it will be found as such by JSA, at which point he can ask for his money back.

I suppose if JSA finds it is genuine, then there may be an issue.

I think that some folks here are a bit too eager to harshly judge some of the newbies that come here asking for opinions.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

I get the impression that he agrees it is fake, but he can't get his money back from the auction house based on Jim's word on this message board. The OP has said as much a couple of times. If it's fake, hopefully it will be found as such by JSA, at which point he can ask for his money back.

I suppose if JSA finds it is genuine, then there may be an issue.

I think that some folks here are a bit too eager to harshly judge some of the newbies that come here asking for opinions.

+1...

[packs]

I found myself in this position recently as well. I bought a Babe Ruth signed Worlds Fair ticket from Lelands that members on the Board felt was a forgery. I called Lelands and told them about their opinions and Lelands then offered to send the signature to JSA for their opinion. It turned out that the Board was right, the signature was a forgery and I was refunded in full and received a $100 voucher for a future auction.

So why did I ask for the Board's opinion and request a third party's opinion too? Because I have a great deal of respect for both the members of this Board and the auction house, and as we all know, people make mistakes.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I think some of you people are missing the point. This is not to criticize him for attempting to get his money back. If he can use what Mr Stinson told him and what he learned from Mr Keurajian's book that is great, it's the fact that he clearly states (even though he and others suspect it's forged) that he plans to resell the item to "recoup" his money. So basically he admits he made a mistake and instead of eating the loss on his mistake, he plans to let someone else eat it if it passes authentication. Again, am I missing something here?

I don't think this is harsh, it's the truth. I have been buying and selling autographs on a small scale along with other vintage memorabilia for many years and I have made many mistakes, one thing I don't do is pass my mistakes on to others. Mistakes are part of the game anytime you choose to buy an autograph that you did not personally see signed, but passing it on is exactly why people hate third party authentication so much

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

Auction house guarantees to pass JSA, so either, I get my money back or it passes and I should be able to sell and recoup my money.

I meant to comment on this when I saw it, but it was late. If you were looking to gather info from experts on this board to supplement what you are already were worrying about, then why slap Mr Stinson in the face when he seconded the opinion given by an equally respected autograph expert?

On top of that, you out yourself to a group of people (that prides themselves on ridding the hobby of forgeries) that you intend to resell an item deemed a forgery by a board expert and others to let yourself off the hook.

WHAT AM I MISSING HERE?????

Lastly, notwithstanding the fact that both PSA and JSA authenticate these photos, would you be willing to discuss the signature and why there is confusion and differing opinions Mr Stinson? thanks

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I meant to comment on this when I saw it, but it was late. If you were looking to gather info from experts on this board to supplement what you are already were worrying about, then why slap Mr Stinson in the face when he seconded the opinion given by an equally respected autograph expert?

On top of that, you out yourself to a group of people (that prides themselves on ridding the hobby of forgeries) that you intend to resell an item deemed a forgery by a board expert and others to let yourself off the hook.

WHAT AM I MISSING HERE?????

Lastly, notwithstanding the fact that both PSA and JSA authenticate these photos, would you be willing to discuss the signature and why there is confusion and differing opinions Mr Stinson? thanks

Typically if I give an opinion that is contrary , I have nothing to gain but enemies or arguments , I try and avoid either one especially when I have no dog in the fight. When I said in the earlier post that it would be "debated" I meant that not everyone is going to agree. To address an earlier post in the thread FORGERIES are GOING TO LOOK LIKE known examples , so to base the opinion on strickly what it LOOKS like, is not valid either.
But to illustrate an example used in another post with regards to the Holland furnace company Rocky Marciano items , when they first hit the market with a COA from one of Marciano's family members they were thought to be good , however within 30 days additional evidence surfaced to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt they were forged. So now these many years later anyone in the know, won't touch them.
So getting back to the Harris when those 8x10's surfaced , information networked between collectors concluded at the time they were to be avoided. What was common knowledge then , over the course of 20 plus years becomes diluded or forgotten and the new crop of collectors is either not aware or dosen't care. I was only passing along to the person that asked the question what I guessed was common knowledge which obviously I guessed wrong, considering the length of this thread.
So in conclusion can I say with 100% accuracy that its a forgery ? Of course not I was not there ! And opinions just seem to lead to controversy or in this case "second guessing" so lately I have purposely avoided giving them. If I was charging $100 or $200 a whack I wouldn;t care and I'd just fade the heat but for FREE ? why bother ?
So in conclusion and only speaking for myself if you offered the photo to me for free asking only that I pay the postage and handling I would decline. Thats not to say that someone else might certify it as genuine thats their opinion.
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jim@stinsonsports.com