Help Needed regarding bad Babe Ruth auto

[David Atkatz]

Without taking a stand as to the authenticity of either of the two side-by-side Ruth signatures you presented above, I must ask you, why do you feel they are an exact match?

As far as I can tell, there's not a single letter formation that matches.

[mighty bombjack]

Haven't we seen that Leaf was fooled by a forged alphabet cert, leading to a forged auto being put into a Leaf card and then slabbed by Beckett? Perhaps the same happened to Tristar. Could be that these forgers found a new ready market in the card companies, who have deep pockets but are easy targets due to their bureaucracies and desires for wholesale prices?

[Westsiders]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Haven't we seen that Leaf was fooled by a forged alphabet cert, leading to a forged auto being put into a Leaf card and then slabbed by Beckett? Perhaps the same happened to Tristar. Could be that these forgers found a new ready market in the card companies, who have deep pockets but are easy targets due to their bureaucracies and desires for wholesale prices?

Yes...there was a Leaf card with a bad Ruth auto that was discovered this past week (result of a forged JSA cert). But the Leaf card wasn't a chase card...just one of the $45 DIY offered by Leaf.

But this doesn't appear to be the case with the Tri-Star card. The JSA cert for the initial chase card...the "Blarney Stone" Ruth, is a valid cert. However, it appears that it's a good cert for a bad auto.

Not sure if it's the case with the offered replacement auto.

[chaddurbin]

did you contact JSA, and what did they say?

sorry couldn't help you any further, that's the problem with autographs at the end of the day they're all just opinions.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

did you contact JSA, and what did they say?

sorry couldn't help you any further, that's the problem with autographs at the end of the day they're all just opinions.

but keep our cert handy because that makes it real. it's only an opinion if someone can point to it being a fake, its gospel if people think its real.

[Westsiders]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

did you contact JSA, and what did they say?

sorry couldn't help you any further, that's the problem with autographs at the end of the day they're all just opinions.

Initially, when I got the (2) "unable to render" responses, I contacted PSA to ask why I couldn't get an opinion (either way). I was told that the PSA authenticators don't speak to customers on the phone. Being a newbie...I figured this was the industry norm.

After being advised by Tri-Star to contact JSA, I assumed that I would get the same response. To my surprise, I briefly explained the situation to the woman that answered the phone, and she immediately got an authenticator to speak to me on the phone. My first impression was..."wow, what great customer service." After a few seconds into my conversation with the authenticator, my opinion of their customer service drastically changed.

I briefly explained the reason for my call, then asked the authenticator about a specific issue that I had with the auto. From the start, the authenticator was extremely defensive and told me that he "didn't owe me or anyone else an explanation" regarding the concern with the auto. I was then told that my only option was to re-submit the auto to JSA and have them re-examine it.

I told the authenticator that I would be happy to re-submit it and pay the fees if I could get any kind of opinion regarding my primary concern with the card. He was again extremely rude and he told me that it would never happen. So basically, I would be paying $200 for a form letter, confirming their initial opinion (why would they ever contradict their initial opinion).

Again, when this transaction began, I was a novice to Ruth autos (and autos in general). I never imagined there were so many shades of gray in the industry...Very unfortunate.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Westsiders

Initially, when I got the (2) "unable to render" responses, I contacted PSA to ask why I couldn't get an opinion (either way). I was told that the PSA authenticators don't speak to customers on the phone. Being a newbie...I figured this was the industry norm.

After being advised by Tri-Star to contact JSA, I assumed that I would get the same response. To my surprise, I briefly explained the situation to the woman that answered the phone, and she immediately got an authenticator to speak to me on the phone. My first impression was..."wow, what great customer service." After a few seconds into my conversation with the authenticator, my opinion of their customer service drastically changed.

I briefly explained the reason for my call, then asked the authenticator about a specific issue that I had with the auto. From the start, the authenticator was extremely defensive and told me that he "didn't owe me or anyone else an explanation" regarding the concern with the auto. I was then told that my only option was to re-submit the auto to JSA and have them re-examine it.

I told the authenticator that I would be happy to re-submit it and pay the fees if I could get any kind of opinion regarding my primary concern with the card. He was again extremely rude and he told me that it would never happen. So basically, I would be paying $200 for a form letter, confirming their initial opinion (why would they ever contradict their initial opinion).

Again, when this transaction began, I was a novice to Ruth autos (and autos in general). I never imagined there were so many shades of gray in the industry...Very unfortunate.

It's very unfortunate that these companies act this way and more unfortunate that there are people, industry execs and hobbyists, collectors who condone it, look the other way or defend it.

They owe you an explanation, you are the customer. But they have a monopoly on their services right now so there is no outside pressure for them to change the way they do business. It's either thing 1 or thing 2. West coast authenticators doesnt speak to customers over the phone because their authentication skills would be found out to be lacking if they had to explain themselves. They want to keep everyone in the dark so they can keep doing it their way, which benefits them and not the customer in my very humble opinion.

A true, genuine, customer service oriented authentication company would gladly tell you how they came to their conclusions and openly discuss why they believe an autograph is genuine or not genuine. Why should they have anything to hide?

I would gladly discuss autographs with anyone if I worked there but that's why no one with a backbone works for any of these companies. They treat the customer like an inconvenience, and it's too bad. If enough hobby people complained I think we could get a chance, but it doesn't seem like it is going to happen, because there is too much money to be made defending the status quo and once people find their backbone and stand up, they get the equivalent of a blackball from the autograph hobby and called all sorts of names including helper of the forgers.

I continually speak out against such horrible practices and get labelled a troublemaker with an agenda. my agenda being I want to see the customer get better service not to mention competant service but that doesn't keep the lights on and keep them in mocha frappuccinos so i get called an instigator instead. Let's clean up the hobby and fire these people who don't think they owe the customers any explanations by not hiring them in the first place. Joe, Steve, James, you don't owe anyone any explanations, really?

[Big Dave]

+1

[Westsiders]

Originally Posted by travrosty

It's very unfortunate that these companies act this way and more unfortunate that there are people, industry execs and hobbyists, collectors who condone it, look the other way or defend it.

They owe you an explanation, you are the customer. But they have a monopoly on their services right now so there is no outside pressure for them to change the way they do business. It's either thing 1 or thing 2. West coast authenticators doesnt speak to customers over the phone because their authentication skills would be found out to be lacking if they had to explain themselves. They want to keep everyone in the dark so they can keep doing it their way, which benefits them and not the customer in my very humble opinion.

A true, genuine, customer service oriented authentication company would gladly tell you how they came to their conclusions and openly discuss why they believe an autograph is genuine or not genuine. Why should they have anything to hide?

I would gladly discuss autographs with anyone if I worked there but that's why no one with a backbone works for any of these companies. They treat the customer like an inconvenience, and it's too bad. If enough hobby people complained I think we could get a chance, but it doesn't seem like it is going to happen, because there is too much money to be made defending the status quo and once people find their backbone and stand up, they get the equivalent of a blackball from the autograph hobby and called all sorts of names including helper of the forgers.

I continually speak out against such horrible practices and get labelled a troublemaker with an agenda. my agenda being I want to see the customer get better service not to mention competant service but that doesn't keep the lights on and keep them in mocha frappuccinos so i get called an instigator instead. Let's clean up the hobby and fire these people who don't think they owe the customers any explanations by not hiring them in the first place. Joe, Steve, James, you don't owe anyone any explanations, really?

As someone fairly new to the industry, in no way am I up to speed with all of the issues and backstories with the TPA's.

But for some reason, many seem to be very reluctant to speak openly about the TPA's...and very quick to jump to their defense. Obviously, there must be some motivation behind it (although I'm not experienced enough to know what the motivation actually is).

In dealing with PSA, they refused give me an opinion either way. I'm sure they had an opinion, but for some reason, refused to give it. I have used them numerous times (both before and after the Blarney Stone auto)...and an opinion has always been given.

When I attempted to contact PSA to ascertain why they wouldn't give an opinion, I was told that authenticators don't speak regarding such issues. Not great customer service...but I do understand the reason for such a policy. And since they issue refunds when they are "unable to render"...not much I can really complain about.

In regards to JSA...I understand that they are one of the big boys, are very well respected, and good at what they do.

With that said, I (not an expert by any means) am convinced that the Blarney Stone Ruth is bad....and according to previous posts, many experts in this forum believe that it's bad as well.

When I called JSA to speak about the auto, the customer service was terrible. The authenticator was defensive, rude, and combative. I was shocked when I was told that he didn't own me or anyone else any kind of explanation regarding the auto. I'm assuming since they only have one competitor in the industry...customer service isn't high on their priority list.

Then, when Tri-Star offered me the replacement auto (an auto they informed me was also certed by JSA), I turned to the experts at Net54 for some help. Needless to say, the replacement auto was unanimously destroyed in this forum.

As a consumer, I don't understand how these highly suspicious autos (certed by one of the big two TPA's) end up being chase cards for these big companies.

[Sean1125]

I glad you ended up coming to the board for help. I know you will be able to get some from the experienced members here.

Sean

[Westsiders]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

I glad you ended up coming to the board for help. I know you will be able to get some from the experienced members here.

Sean

Thanks Sean....appreciate the help. And great job finding the match for the replacement auto.

[Westsiders]

Sorry David....I should have explained it better.

The side-by-side comparison is from a website...featuring the bad Ruth on the left, vs. a good Ruth on the right.http://www.collecting-autographs.com...ntication.html

The Ruth auto on the left was offered as the replacement auto. So the exact match is between the replacement auto...and the Ruth auto on the left. And the match itself was discovered as result of some good detective work by members of Net54.

[David Atkatz]

Thanks for clearing that up.