Help Needed regarding bad Babe Ruth auto

[travrosty]

But for some reason, many seem to be very reluctant to speak openly about the TPA's...and very quick to jump to their defense. Obviously, there must be some motivation behind it (although I'm not experienced enough to know what the motivation actually is).



two reasons, one rhymes with bunny. lots of greasy palms around that aren't looking to dry up anytime soon by the truth spreading around. That would be like a chicken voting for colonel sanders.

the other is being scared for fear of being blackballed by the hobby.

[travrosty]

you will see in your lifetime tpa companies who won't act like this (treating the customer like a piece of dirt) and will actually talk to you, explain their authentications and be open, honest and transparent. It may take a while, but it will eventually happen because the open transparent system of doing authentication is better than the "go away" type of authentication. The problem is that the current authentication systems in place has a strangehold on the hobby - two companies that act and authenticate exactly the same. wink and nod.

when change occurs, it will occur fast and the old guard will have to adapt and change their ways or die out. Then you will get customer service. We have to stop thinking of mr. west coat and mr. east coast as some type of gods who are untouchable and start asking questions of them and to them. If they are who they say they are, then they are good enough at what they do to handle the tough questions.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

you will see in your lifetime tpa companies who won't act like this (treating the customer like a piece of dirt) and will actually talk to you, explain their authentications and be open, honest and transparent. It may take a while, but it will eventually happen because the open transparent system of doing authentication is better than the "go away" type of authentication. The problem is that the current authentication systems in place has a strangehold on the hobby - two companies that act and authenticate exactly the same. wink and nod.

when change occurs, it will occur fast and the old guard will have to adapt and change their ways or die out. Then you will get customer service. We have to stop thinking of mr. west coat and mr. east coast as some type of gods who are untouchable and start asking questions of them and to them. If they are who they say they are, then they are good enough at what they do to handle the tough questions.

I love this optimism, I really do. I just don't share it. I don't see it happening, because a model that is focused on the things you constantly (and rightfully) call for is not a profitable one. It just isn't.

Are you going to start said authentication company? If so, more power to you. If not (which is more likely), think about all of the myriad reasons why not. There are a lot of very good reasons not to go into this business, and there are a lot of reasons why the TPAs don't do the things you ask them to do.

Do you have any info about someone credible starting this type of TPA "in your lifetime"? Wishful thinking doesn't count.

Again, I love the optimism coming from you on this post.

[Westsiders]

Originally Posted by travrosty

[I]two reasons, one rhymes with bunny. lots of greasy palms around that aren't looking to dry up anytime soon by the truth spreading around. That would be like a chicken voting for colonel sanders.

the other is being scared for fear of being blackballed by the hobby.

Hey Travis...really appreciate your willingness to speak openly and give your opinions without fear of repercussions. It seems that it has made you quite a polarizing figure in these chat rooms. Saw you taking some serious heat in another link...must be quite a backstory.

And I get what you're saying...as it stands now, if I'm looking to resell a high end auto, I need it to be certed by JSA or PSA. And despite their lack of customer service, there doesn't appear to be any other alternative.

And I do have a question (as I'm still trying to learn the business...and the intricacies of Net 54). A few weeks back, I posted a few details of this story and asked for some help. In one of the replies, you mentioned that my post seemed like a set up. The only reason that I bring it up is that I'm still trying to figure out what kind of set ups can/do take place in a forum such as this. Obviously they do happen (or you wouldn't have brought it up)...just can't figure out the purpose of the set up.

Thanks.

[travrosty]

as it stands now, if I'm looking to resell a high end auto, I need it to be certed by JSA or PSA. And despite their lack of customer service, there doesn't appear to be any other alternative.




that's not true, there are good ways to sell it without authentication from the big two. there are alternatives. me and my friends sell boxing autographs worth hundreds and even thousands of dollars with no psa or jsa certs. i have helped sell 3 autographs of alejandro lavorante worth about 2400 apiece, and not one had psa or jsa or any certification. no grad or spence as they dont know the man;s signature anyway. will get back to that in a bit. maybe i will even start a separate thread on it.


as for the post i made, i dont remember it specifically, but many times people post autographs here and it is a setup, so its not always easy to figure out which ones are the setups and which ones arent. sometimes it is the comments of other people that lead me to believe that it is a setup. so sorry if i thought it was and it wasn't.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by travrosty

[I]

that's not true, there are good ways to sell it without authentication from the big two. there are alternatives. me and my friends sell boxing autographs worth hundreds and even thousands of dollars with no psa or jsa certs. i have helped sell 3 autographs of alejandro lavorante worth about 2400 apiece, and not one had psa or jsa or any certification. no grad or spence as they dont know the man;s signature anyway. will get back to that in a bit. maybe i will even start a separate thread on it.

this point always bug me. sure there are ways to sell it w/o authentication, if your name is stinson or simon or keating etc where your rep is good and you have connections with a database of buying clients...or you where your name is known in the boxing circle.

the little guys need spence or psa/dna to level the field a bit. it doesn't matter if the seller knows the sig is good, it's whether the potential buyer believe it is...and the reality is JSA and PSA/DNA have done a good enough job to earn the consumer's trust.

[jgmp123]

You give the buyer what they want. 9 times out of 10, when you sell an autograph on a site like eBay the first question asked is "does it come with a cert"...if I am a seller and I want to actually "sell" the item, then I have to put the things in place that the seller wants to bid on my item. If that means I get it certified, then that's what you do.

[Westsiders]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

the little guys need spence or psa/dna to level the field a bit. it doesn't matter if the seller knows the sig is good, it's whether the potential buyer believe it is...and the reality is JSA and PSA/DNA have done a good enough job to earn the consumer's trust.

I completely agree with both points...the little guy (like me) needs a cert from one of the big two to sell an auto...and that JSA and PSA must have done a good enough job to earn the industry's trust.

And without question, even the best of the best make mistakes. But some of these mistakes (including this one with the "Blarney Stone" Ruth) makes me wonder how a company so well versed and experienced in Ruth autos, could make a mistake on this poorly executed forgery. Is it simply a case of them having so many Ruth's run through their system that some inevitably fall through the cracks?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

this point always bug me. sure there are ways to sell it w/o authentication, if your name is stinson or simon or keating etc where your rep is good and you have connections with a database of buying clients...or you where your name is known in the boxing circle.

the little guys need spence or psa/dna to level the field a bit. it doesn't matter if the seller knows the sig is good, it's whether the potential buyer believe it is...and the reality is JSA and PSA/DNA have done a good enough job to earn the consumer's trust.

I respectfully disagree. I buy autographed letters and I don't need either PSA or JSA. I buy from reputable sellers and I do my homework - that's really all there is to it. If you don't have confidence enough in your own knowledge to buy autographs without LOA's, then you really shouldn't buy them (yet) - the answer is not throwing that responsibility on PSA and JSA.

As far as earning the consumer's trust - PSA has not earned mine. It's not just about their mistakes - it's more about their arrogance.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I respectfully disagree. I buy autographed letters and I don't need either PSA or JSA. I buy from reputable sellers and I do my homework - that's really all there is to it. If you don't have confidence enough in your own knowledge to buy autographs without LOA's, then you really shouldn't buy them (yet) - the answer is not throwing that responsibility on PSA and JSA.

As far as earning the consumer's trust - PSA has not earned mine. It's not just about their mistakes - it's more about their arrogance.

Yes, you buy. I too love to buy without certs, because it can be had cheaper. He's talking about selling. There is no doubt that if you are not a big name dealer and you are going to sell a Ruth auto, or any high end baseball auto for that matter, the investment to get it certed by one of the two big alphabets pays dividends. I don't know or care about boxing, but it's true in baseball. That is a result of marketing, and it is a pain in the ass, but it is reality.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Yes, you buy. I too love to buy without certs, because it can be had cheaper. He's talking about selling. There is no doubt that if you are not a big name dealer and you are going to sell a Ruth auto, or any high end baseball auto for that matter, the investment to get it certed by one of the two big alphabets pays dividends. I don't know or care about boxing, but it's true in baseball. That is a result of marketing, and it is a pain in the ass, but it is reality.

Doh. You are right - I read the posts, but totally was focused on buying, not selling.

But I still disagree with their point, even when selling. First of all, you are going to get screwed if you sell on ebay, PSA and/or JSA cert or not - yes, a known seller will do better than you, regardless of LOA's. That leaves two other options. If you are selling here, then you shouldn't have any problems - I've done much better selling non-certified autographs here, than certified on ebay. Your third option is to sell through an auction house, and they will slap on a PSA/JSA 'pre-cert' designation whether you like it or not.

The above is true from my experience, for the legitimate stuff (like the letters I buy and sometimes sell), but if you were trying to sell a single-signed (or even team) Ruth forged baseball, the PSA or JSA LOA would be very, very helpful.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

as it stands now, if I'm looking to resell a high end auto, I need it to be certed by JSA or PSA. And despite their lack of customer service, there doesn't appear to be any other alternative.




that's not true, there are good ways to sell it without authentication from the big two. there are alternatives. me and my friends sell boxing autographs worth hundreds and even thousands of dollars with no psa or jsa certs. i have helped sell 3 autographs of alejandro lavorante worth about 2400 apiece, and not one had psa or jsa or any certification. no grad or spence as they dont know the man;s signature anyway.

it is true in baseball, no doubt about it.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Westsiders

Hey Travis...really appreciate your willingness to speak openly and give your opinions without fear of repercussions. It seems that it has made you quite a polarizing figure in these chat rooms. Saw you taking some serious heat in another link...must be quite a backstory.

What repercussions would people be afraid of, exactly? I hear this (mostly from
Travis) and I don't get it.

I can tell you that some of us simply don't take this all that seriously (you know, as a hobby), so we kinda look at the TPAs and their incompetence as a minor inconvenience and a reality of the current state of the hobby. That attitude has made Travis accuse us of being part of some vast conspiracy, and that rubs many of us the wrong way.

If he focused only on the errors of these companies, he would be a hero around here. Instead he throws wicked and often baseless accusations around, both at the TPAs and fellow members, so he does end up polarizing.

The whole thing adds up to great entertainment in the end. Stick around, you'll see.