Getting sick of the more obvious frauds

[jlehma13]

After coming back to the hobby after years away like so many of you, I had to educate myself. I have been moderately successful with pick-ups and have had a lot of fun in the process because I have done my due diligence. Sure there are cards that I have made offers on that were declined, only to remain listed for months now. I had one issue with a seller that Ebay had to step in a rectify. Point being, I may shake my head in disbelief for a moment but, ultimately I pass on those sellers that are out of line in one way or another and don't lose a second of sleep over it.
Businesses close everyday. Putting the offenders, and there will always be offenders, on your list and moving on will speed that process up.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

I'm glad you brought that up John, but you did fail to mention my last offer which was over $1,000 more than what you paid. But again it's irrelevant as we chose not to deal. You're a good guy John, I'm sure down the road we may come to an agreement.

Glenn, that’s not entirely true and don’t appreciate the implication.

Happy to post the PM if you like.

I was trying to be nice and have a civil discussion on how folks can see things two different ways when it comes to offers.

If you are referring to the section in which after I tell you we are way off on a deal but thank you for reaching out, in which you counter with the “I may go $5500” and then explain how you don’t buy into fads etc. Then yes I guess you offered $800 dollars more. However the deal was done seeing as you weren’t close I didn’t take this as an offer and you know that.

My point Glenn is that as much as you can say why even list a card for sale if you’re not looking to sell? The same response can be on the other side of the fence from the seller saying why even reach out to me and offer to buy something if the offer isn’t going to be a serious offer.

As to tougher back HOF players being a fad that’s all in the eye of the collector and I guess the market will decided that should I decide to sell.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by tschock

So let the seller ask for 2-3x it's "worth". And who again is to say that the 2-3x asking price isn't WORTH it to the buyer? You?

Well I don't know you tell me, is an item sitting on Ebay for 3 years at a ridiculous price just something that I noticed and chose not be an idiot and buy??? The answer is a resounding no and the fact that cards just sit and sit and sit for years further validates my (and other's) whole point. Not to single you out, but If you happen to be one of these "sellers" then more power to you. Hope you have all the time in the world.

On a side note, remember when owners/sellers of real property thought the housing market was going to stay "hot" forever??.....lol......yeah, how'd that turn out?

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Glenn, that’s not entirely true and don’t appreciate the implication.

Happy to post the PM if you like.

I was trying to be nice and have a civil discussion on how folks can see things two different ways when it comes to offers.

If you are referring to the section in which after I tell you we are way off on a deal but thank you for reaching out, in which you counter with the “I may go $5500” and then explain how you don’t buy into fads etc. Then yes I guess you offered $800 dollars more. However the deal was done seeing as you weren’t close I didn’t take this as an offer and you know that.

My point Glenn is that as much as you can say why even list a card for sale if you’re not looking to sell? The same response can be on the other side of the fence from the seller saying why even reach out to me and offer to buy something if the offer isn’t going to be a serious offer.

As to tougher back HOF players being a fad that’s all in the eye of the collector and I guess the market will decided that should I decide to sell.

Actually John, you stopped the negotiations as claiming "you really don't need to sell" so that's when the door shut. You're more than welcome to post whatever you want, but the fact remains that you really weren't serious about selling (please at least admit to that) which dictated my offers. I didn't become a successful business owner by playing the "games". There's a reason you still have it and that's all that really needs to be discussed here.

As other sellers here whom I've dealt with will attest, I have no problem handing out money for what I want, but when I'm met with "I do have it, but I'm not really in any hurry to sell" I already know it's gonna be a waste of time as not matter what, the offer is never gonna be "good enough", it's the case in almost all business aspects.

[kcohen]

We can all stipulate that a seller has every right to ask whatever he wants. That said, I have found over the last few years that certain BST users just come across as cheap hustlers. All of the sudden a card mysteriously increases in value by thousands. Nothing illegal or even unethical I suppose. I just find it tedious and it makes the forum overall less pleasant. But that's just me.

[HRBAKER]

To me most of the sellers we are talking about don't care if they sell the cards. Actually to call them sellers is a misnomer. They are listers looking for a certain level of return, they don't care if you and I think it is realistic. They can wait for the price they want, or they can put their money in a CD and earn a half percent. The other part is eBay had made it so operationally easy to be this type of lister as well as financially attractive there really is no downside other than pissing a few folks off. And that obviously doesn't bother them. Just move on.

Now, out and out lying in a description - another matter entirely.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey guys
Let's cut the personal arguing please and get back to arguing about impotent (sic) stuff!!

Sorry Leon, it's gotten old having to listen to this plethora of, if not children, certainly child-like new posters who jump right in and start attacking people for no good reason. I completely expected the rebuttal I got, but the original victim of Shoele$$ certainly didn't deserve it, and when I see such a blatantly ridiculous accusation, I'll defend the board member. If we don't, we'll get overrun as we did temporarily with the crowd that got kicked off the PSA board. Actually, I'm not certain this newest wave didn't come from there as well.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Sorry Leon, it's gotten old having to listen to this plethora of, if not children, certainly child-like new posters who jump right in and start attacking people for no good reason. I completely expected the rebuttal I got, but the original victim of Shoele$$ certainly didn't deserve it, and when I see such a blatantly ridiculous accusation, I'll defend the board member. If we don't, we'll get overrun as we did temporarily with the crowd that got kicked off the PSA board. Actually, I'm not certain this newest wave didn't come from there as well.

Yes, the sudden emigration from the CU board has mostly worn off. I invite everyone over there to come here but act more like we do here than there . At least here everyone WILL put their name by their posts..which is my biggest pet peeve over there. I know it's a huge hassle to have 100% compliance so don't blame other boards for their lack of mandating it...but it still sucks when people hurl stones while hiding behind a keyboard. At least over here when someone slams you, you will know who it is (unless falsely registered, which will be figured out in due time).

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Sorry Leon, it's gotten old having to listen to this plethora of, if not children, certainly child-like new posters who jump right in and start attacking people for no good reason. I completely expected the rebuttal I got, but the original victim of Shoele$$ certainly didn't deserve it, and when I see such a blatantly ridiculous accusation, I'll defend the board member. If we don't, we'll get overrun as we did temporarily with the crowd that got kicked off the PSA board. Actually, I'm not certain this newest wave didn't come from there as well.

"Victim"...lol. You really are a piece of work, thank god you don't run in my circles. Have a great day Scotty

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

"Victim"...lol. You really are a piece of work, thank god you don't run in my circles. Have a great day Scotty

'Scotty' is kind of predictable. Try something more creative: runny-scott, ruin-scott, runny, etc. But 'Scotty' is just plain boring. If you every have anything serious or useful to say, you'll try what the others on this board use: 'Scott'. Simple but effective.

As far as running in your circles, that's certainly not going to happen. You are allowed here, as is everyone, so you are somewhat unavoidable.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Actually John, you stopped the negotiations as claiming "you really don't need to sell" so that's when the door shut. You're more than welcome to post whatever you want, but the fact remains that you really weren't serious about selling (please at least admit to that) which dictated my offers. I didn't become a successful business owner by playing the "games". There's a reason you still have it and that's all that really needs to be discussed here.

As other sellers here whom I've dealt with will attest, I have no problem handing out money for what I want, but when I'm met with "I do have it, but I'm not really in any hurry to sell" I already know it's gonna be a waste of time as not matter what, the offer is never gonna be "good enough", it's the case in almost all business aspects.

Glenn the reason I still have the card is you offered $4500 dollars for a card that I bought two years ago for $4700. I wasn’t interested in selling it to you at your offer that doesn’t make me unreasonable or make the card not for sale.

Cheers,

John

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Runscott

'Scotty' is kind of predictable. Try something more creative: runny-scott, ruin-scott, runny, etc. But 'Scotty' is just plain boring. If you every have anything serious or useful to say, you'll try what the others on this board use: 'Scott'. Simple but effective.

As far as running in your circles, that's certainly not going to happen. You are allowed here, as is everyone, so you are somewhat unavoidable.

I can think of something a lot more fitting for you, don't worry

On I know it's not going to happen, however there should be that little button that says "ignore", you are truly MORE than welcome to utilize it if you haven't already, then problem solved, you're back to sleeping better at night

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Glenn the reason I still have the card is you offered $4500 dollars for a card that I bought two years ago for $4700. I wasn’t interested in selling it to you at your offer that doesn’t make me unreasonable or make the card not for sale.

Cheers,

John

John you know damn well my ceiling would have been higher if I felt you honestly were ready to move on it. We can always revisit it.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

...but act more like we do here than there .

That's the problem. The 'tell' has been the foul language that some of these guys are having to use in order to make their point. I realize that's common in most internet forums, but it's something we've done a good job of avoiding.

And I really get a laugh when a newbie responds to me as 'Scotty'. Not that I need to, but at that point I know I own them.

Exiting yet another infected thread. Have a good one.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Exiting yet another infected thread. Have a good one.

You should have made that decision a long time ago before you got in over your head and contributed to the "infection".....Scotty

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Well I don't know you tell me, is an item sitting on Ebay for 3 years at a ridiculous price just something that I noticed and chose not be an idiot and buy??? The answer is a resounding no and the fact that cards just sit and sit and sit for years further validates my (and other's) whole point.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see your "whole point" as it relates to my response to SPECIFIC comments you made (hence breaking apart your post into specific quotes and commenting on those specific statements).

"There's a big difference between asking for a little profit from what one paid vs. trying to bend over an unsuspecting buyer..." seems like a value judgement to me. I was just trying to understand what is NOT "trying to bend" someone over (in your opinion) and why 2x might be "bad" (the implication you made) but a 20% markup (or whatever) might not be. I might even agree that the buyer IS an idiot. But that doesn't mean the seller was trying bend someone over. Others have pointed out valid reasons why the asking price is so high. If it's too much, I just pass them by.

Maybe it's just my sore-spot for the "obscene profits" canard that's showing here. Sorry for that.

Not to single you out, but If you happen to be one of these "sellers" then more power to you. Hope you have all the time in the world.

Of course you did, otherwise why why imply, assume, or even need to mention this. For the record, I'm not. And have actually been blocked by a few sellers (one having the same card at the 2010 and 2012 National, and still listed online) for having offered what I considered a reasonable price. Rather than grouse about it, I just moved on. The good thing: That's one more booth I can fly past in Chicago.

On a side note, remember when owners/sellers of real property thought the housing market was going to stay "hot" forever??.....lol......yeah, how'd that turn out?

Again, not sure of your point here as it relates to anything I've said. Unless you are actually agreeing with my statement regarding the basic premise of a contract freely made between 2 parties.

On second thought, it IS a lot like buyer cards. Buy what you like for what you think is a fair price. Probably a general life lesson to boot. Cheers!

[HRBAKER]

These "sellers" are committing no crime, you are not entitled to buy their card at a fair price and you are only wasting your time if you choose to. Move on.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

John you know damn well my ceiling would have been higher if I felt you honestly were ready to move on it. We can always revisit it.

Glenn this has nothing to do with me or my lack of motivation. As a buyer it’s on you to motivate me to sell an item that I truly don’t need to sell let alone sell at a loss. I made it clear in the PM on the “do you have a price in mind” comment from you “not cheap” I said…your offer to that comment less than what I publicly paid 2 years ago.

You know the value of these cards; you know what they go for certainly enough to lecture me about fads and price points. Heck you even point out to that I would do better at auction and get more while the back craze is in full swing for this card vs. selling to you today, good advice after you didn’t score the card cheap. I loved that part.

Even more insulting that now you want to play big dog and claim you would have gone way higher and it was me that was holding you back from making a “real” offer. Really I made you lowball me? I have to stop doing that to myself.

This is exactly my point for every unreasonable seller they’re just as many unreasonable buyers. Because I didn’t jump at your offer I’m an unreasonable seller who just doesn’t get it and was wasting your time with items that you have deemed not for sale because they didn’t get sold to you at your offer price.

Cheers,

John

[cubsfan-budman]

That's too funny. It looks to me like Shoele$$ just wanted to buy the card low and then flip it on an AH to take advantage of the "fad" and make some profit...which sounds a LOT like what he's criticizing others for doing. Priceless!

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Glenn this has nothing to do with me or my lack of motivation. As a buyer it’s on you to motivate me to sell an item that I truly don’t need to sell let alone sell at a loss. I made it clear in the PM on the “do you have a price in mind” comment from you “not cheap” I said…your offer to that comment less than what I publicly paid 2 years ago.

You know the value of these cards; you know what they go for certainly enough to lecture me about fads and price points. Heck you even point out to that I would do better at auction and get more while the back craze is in full swing for this card vs. selling to you today, good advice after you didn’t score the card cheap. I loved that part.

Even more insulting that now you want to play big dog and claim you would have gone way higher and it was me that was holding you back from making a “real” offer. Really I made you lowball me? I have to stop doing that to myself.

This is exactly my point for every unreasonable seller they’re just as many unreasonable buyers. Because I didn’t jump at your offer I’m an unreasonable seller who just doesn’t get it and was wasting your time with items that you have deemed not for sale because they didn’t get sold to you at your offer price.

Cheers,

John

P.S. So everyone can see what an unreasonable seller I was being...

And you think by telling me you don't "have to sell" or "it won't be cheap" didnt dictate my offer and responses?? Again....I don't play the seller games.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

That's too funny. It looks to me like Shoele$$ just wanted to buy the card low and then flip it on an AH to take advantage of the "fad" and make some profit...which sounds a LOT like what he's criticizing others for doing. Priceless!

Yeah I was looking to pay close to $6,000 for a card that was paid $4,000 for and then look to "flip it" for a huge profit immediately. Would you pay me or him $10,000 for it??? That's what I thought, the answer is almost always gonna be no. And if it's too hard for you to follow in this thread, I'm a collector, not a shady seller.

[glchen]

Personally, I don't know why this back and forth between John and Glenn is getting so much "press." I've had the same conversations at least 50 times both as buyer and seller that pretty much just look the same as that one. It's no big deal. Move on, nothing to see here. As the buyer, you think the reasonable price should be lower. The seller thinks it should be higher. Both have valid reasons. Deals fall apart all of the time. Who cares? Doesn't have to get personal.

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Yeah I was looking to pay close to $6,000 for a card that was paid $4,000 for and then look to "flip it" for a huge profit. Would you pay me or him $10,000 for it??? That's what I thought.

I wouldnt pay 10000 dollars for a baseball card ever, I dont think.

But he was up front with you, said he paid 4700 (not 4000) and you offer 4500...and he bought it before the "fad" hit.

Obviously he thinks its worth considerably more than the price he bought it for. I think you do too. You wanted to flip it for profit, didn't you?

That's what I thought.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by glchen

Personally, I don't know why this back and forth between John and Glenn is getting so much "press." I've had the same conversations at least 50 times both as buyer and seller that pretty much just look the same as that one. It's no big deal. Move on, nothing to see here. As the buyer, you think the reasonable price should be lower. The seller thinks it should be higher. Both have valid reasons. Deals fall apart all of the time. Who cares? Doesn't have to get personal.

Gary, agree 100%

The reason this was brought up is that Glenn was making claims that sellers waste folks time by having things listed for sale that aren’t in his eyes really for sale.

I simply brought this up to Glenn that perhaps why things aren’t sometimes for sale is the price being offered isn’t in line. Case in point his PM to me…now Glenn has turned this to it was my fault he offered low and all of this falls back on the seller he contacted out of the blue. Nothing is on Glenn and I was somehow playing games yet then again he contacted me hmmm how did I do this again?

I really don’t care either way just thought it was funny Glenn on his soapbox talking about fair dealings and real offers and not wasting folks time and having this in my PM box just the other day.

Cheers,

John

[tschock]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

I wouldnt pay 10000 dollars for a baseball card ever, I dont think.

But he was up front with you, said he paid 4700 (not 4000) and you offer 4500...and he bought it before the "fad" hit.

Obviously he thinks its worth considerably more than the price he bought it for. I think you do too. You wanted to flip it for profit, didn't you?

That's what I thought.

How did you jump to THAT conclusion?
It wasn't from the "that's how smart buyers lose money in the future, just like in the stock market" statement in the PM, was it?

[glchen]

It doesn't matter what John paid for it. I've bought plenty of cards only to find out later that I overpaid for it, and have a hard time going down and losing money on the card in order to get to "market price." However, John doesn't believe that is the case with this card in regards to correct market value, and probably thinks Glenn is lowballing him. As I said this happens all of the time. No big deal. Move on. And personally, I also think that paying $$$$ for rare back T206 commons is absolutely nuts. However, there are like 10,000 avid T206 collectors that vehemently disagree with me, so I think I am in the minuscule minority along w/ Glenn. People have their own opinions on the true worth of these cards. That's how it is. It's like on the CU board, people are raving on how 1977 PSA 9 Ozzie Smith cards are hitting record prices. I get a headache reading those threads. But to each, his own.

Anyway, Glenn, as John said, no worries. It's not "playing games." This is just normal negotiations. Nothing to sweat over.

[bbsports]

Since most collectors & dealers have made their comments already, I just want to be brief here. I've been a dealer for over 30 years. The object here is to try to get a bargain on what you purchase, which is not easy. You make money by buying, not selling. Selling is easy if you buy right. Yes, a buyer can ask what they want for any card, just don't buy the card. Some dealers get involved with auction houses. By the time they pay the juice, they have given their profit to the auction house. When they try to resell the card, they asking the moon for the card & there stuck with the card. There only alternative is to send the card back to another auction house. If you think this is bad now, wait till after 5/1 when e-bay makes their changes. Most cards will be sold as BIN & the asking prices will be much higher than they are now.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by glchen

Personally, I don't know why this back and forth between John and Glenn is getting so much "press." I've had the same conversations at least 50 times both as buyer and seller that pretty much just look the same as that one. It's no big deal. Move on, nothing to see here. As the buyer, you think the reasonable price should be lower. The seller thinks it should be higher. Both have valid reasons. Deals fall apart all of the time. Who cares? Doesn't have to get personal.

Don't worry Gary, John knows exactly what the case was and his overall attitude about selling, don't let it fool you. I guess everything would have been all good had I been the dumb ass to offer to pay John $8-10K for his card right?

I guess I'll say everybody is thinking because I just don't give a $hit, basically what happened was I ask John if he wants to sell, he says "well I really don't have to sell"......"but if I do, IT'S NOT GONNA BE CHEAP".....translation turned out to be "sure if you're dumb enough to make me an offer for 2-3 times what I paid, I'll sell it".....well yeah! Of course! If everybody was a sucker and always paid 2-3 times for everything I owned, I'd be a sell everything I had too! Is it clear enough now?

[Matthew H]

Glenn, for what it's worth, I think 5500 might be kinda low for today's market on that particular card. I join the ranks of people that think it's crazy to collect tobacco ads and I don't collect T206... But after reading your exchange, I wonder why you'd offer 5500 for a Tris Speaker T206 if you weren't into the back "fad".

I kinda wish this topic would have stayed on track. We were discussing a newer kind of fraud in which sellers lie, using scan doctoring and false descriptions, to try to sucker someone into buying their card at their price. Yes, obviously any one can ask anything for what they own, buy they need to do it truthfully. People who get suckered this way are most likely newbies, who will most likely not remain in the hobby very long after they realize how scumy some sellers are. That is bad for a hobby that relies on newcomers for prices to remain stable as oldtimers sell off their collections.

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Don't worry Gary, John knows exactly what the case was and his overall attitude about selling, don't let it fool you. I guess everything would have been all good had I been the dumb ass to offer to pay John $8-10K for his card right?

I guess I'll say everybody is thinking because I just don't give a $hit, basically what happened was I ask John if he wants to sell, he says "well I really don't have to sell"......"but if I do, IT'S NOT GONNA BE CHEAP".....translation turned out to be "sure if you're dumb enough to make me an offer for 2-3 times what I paid, I'll sell it".....well yeah! Of course! If everybody was a sucker and always paid 2-3 times for everything I owned, I'd be a sell everything I had too! Is it clear enough now?

yeah, its totally too bad that someone else made the money that you wanted to make. where's the justice!?!?

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

yeah, its totally too bad that someone else made the money that you wanted to make. where's the justice!?!?

Who made what money?? What are you even talking about? You just like reading your own cool guy posts don't you? You're like the little kid that jumps in screaming "YEAH!!!" for no reason. Go back to whatever hole you crawled out from.....please.

[Leon]

Let me go ahead and draw this virtual line in the sand. Get back to the topic please.....or your post might be edited out. I think the fraud that Jeff is talking about is rampant and needs to be dealt with. As an auctioneer I could easily do photoshop and scanning tweaks to make things look better. Then I too would be a fraudster......but for me, it hurts my gut so I can't do it. Others, it doesn't seem to bother. They will reap what they sow.....

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

But after reading your exchange, I wonder why you'd offer 5500 for a Tris Speaker T206 if you weren't into the back "fad"

So then you do feel that offer was fairly decent considering it seemed high to you for the back? If offers because I'm a huge Tris collector as well, the back was just an added bump due to overall rarity. But it wasn't an invitation to try to give it to me in the a$$ with no lube. That's my whole point in the first place. If I really wanted to low ball I wouldn't have offered almost $6,000. Common sense should start kicking in to some people as 6-65 is about what it would pull in even at an AH.

[wonkaticket]

Glenn not sure why I’m the bad guy here or why all of your hostility?

I’ve been offered way above what you offered for the card in question. I don’t need to sell because guess what….exactly that I don’t need to sell. The card is in my personal collection and I’m in no need to unload the item. Should I decide to sell this card why would I sell to you at less than what I paid for it or for that matter a slight perceived profit via your eyes. Last I checked hobby prices aren’t set by you.

I was very nice on your request and I was clear I would sell this card but need a serious offer. You failed to give a serious offer and I wasted none of your time or mine on back forth banter I said thanks but no thanks. It was you who continued the lecture and conversation as if to imply you had it figured all out and I’m just some dumb schmuck with some cards.

This has nothing to do with markets, trends/fads, you being a super successful business man, the rise and fall of T206’s, stock markets or unreasonable sellers.

You offered a number and a low one at that and I said no thanks very nicely for the record…that’s it.

Perhaps you can think about that next time you think the seller is the unreasonable one as coins do tend to have two sides that’s all I was saying.

John

P.S. Nobody was trying to take advantage of you. You made an offer and I rejected that offer. I never even gave you a counter offer or number so how is that attempting to take advantage of you?

[smtjoy]

This auction made me think of the title of this thread- "more obvious frauds"- boy I sure love the private bidding as well as the nice clean bidding amounts, ouch-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...item33811d6066

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...item4ac31c5284

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

This auction made me think of the title of this thread- "more obvious frauds"- boy I sure love the private bidding as well as the nice clean bidding amounts, ouch-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...item33811d6066

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...item4ac31c5284

Perfect example. Rare back? If a real person "wins" that card, they'd probably be someone new to the hobby who read about rare backs somewhere and believed this description.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Glenn not sure why I’m the bad guy here or why all of your hostility?

I’ve been offered way above what you offered for the card in question. I don’t need to sell because guess what….exactly that I don’t need to sell. The card is in my personal collection and I’m in no need to unload the item.
Should I decide to sell this card why would I sell to you at less than what I paid for it or for that matter a slight perceived profit via your eyes. Last I checked hobby prices aren’t set by you.

I was very nice on your request and I was clear I would sell this card but need a serious offer. You failed to give a serious offer and I wasted none of your time or mine on back forth banter I said thanks but no thanks. It was you who continued the lecture and conversation as if to imply you had it figured all out and I’m just some dumb schmuck with some cards.

This has nothing to do with markets, trends/fads, you being a super successful business man, the rise and fall of T206’s, stock markets or unreasonable sellers.

You offered a number and a low one at that and I said no thanks very nicely for the record…that’s it.

Perhaps you can think about that next time you think the seller is the unreasonable one as coins do tend to have two sides that’s all I was saying.

John

Look John, here's the deal, first of all I bear no hostility to you, as my definition of "hostile" is a lot different than yours, believe me when I say that. Second of all if you had offers WAY above the almost $6,000 I last offered, you should have and already would sold it. Why don't you post a thread of those offers like you did mine?? Thirdly don't get defensive with me when it was YOU who decided to first air the dirty laundry, at that point it's fair game right? Sorry but I have very little tolerance for bull$hit to begin with as it is coming from a third generation mob family, it's ingrained in me.

Sounds to me like you're the one who feels like you got it all figured out right? Since now you wanna lecture me on what this is actually about. Explain to me why your word is now gospel? Sounds kinda hypocritical wouldn't ya say? But what do I know, I'm the dumb f*ck buyer who didnt pay you 3 times what your card is worth

Send me a PM if you'd like to continue.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Getting sick of the more obvious frauds

So you want more less obvious frauds?

Sorry but every time I see this thread bumped into my new posts I think it comes off like you wish people would hide their fraud better.

[sbfinley]

A couple of personal points.

1. Anyone in the market for the original card in question should be doing their due diligence and know the issue's previous history. This is not a card that an unsuspecting mother, father, or wife would pull the trigger on for a loved one's gift. I would venture to guess that less than half of this board's registered members had even seen a copy of it before this thread. It also does not carry the popularity of as, say, one of his T206 poses so it would not be on the radar of even above-average collectors. What are there, maybe a couple dozen graded examples of the card?

2. I do not personally consider adjusting scans an agent of fraud. To me that is reserved for trimmed, recolored, swapped, and stolen cards. Part of selling is making the product seem appealing. If the scan was edited to hide something (paper loss-creases) I might consider otherwise, but simply adjusting the scan to make the card pop does not constitute fraud to me. Unethical maybe, but not fraud.

3. Use common sense. The card is slabbed poor with obvious creases. Yes, I know not all poor cards are built alike, but know what you are getting. I have purchased many lower grade cards before and never have I commented "I really thought it would present better" when I received them. They are poor for a reason.

4. A seller can ask whatever they want for card. It is their business. This isn't the late 80's and early 90's when everyone was a dealer and that was their livelihood. There are a few big time dealers left on the bay who make a living turning cardboard, but the vast majority are doctors, lawyers, educators, or businessmen and women first. It is not a job for them, it is a hobby and their family isn't going to go hungry because they wouldn't come down 10%-15% on a $3k card.

5. I'll over pay for a card that I really want. I am a very impulsive buyer. There are many collectors who are very selective and patient, but there are also many like me who, when they want it and have the cash, will jump on it. I had been following a card sitting on a 1k buy it now for almost a year. It was more likely a $600-650 card. It sold two weeks ago. I thought I knew who picked it up so I sent him an email. He was the one who finally bit and when I asked him if he thought it was a bad deal he responded that he hadn't seen another one come up in months and he really wanted it. He was happy. The seller was happy. Everyone was happy.

6. It is a baseball card.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

A couple of personal points.

1. Anyone in the market for the original card in question should be doing their due diligence and know the issue's previous history. This is not a card that an unsuspecting mother, father, or wife would pull the trigger on for a loved one's gift. I would venture to guess that less than half of this board's registered members had even seen a copy of it before this thread. It also does not carry the popularity of as, say, one of his T206 poses so it would not be on the radar of even above-average collectors. What are there, maybe a couple dozen graded examples of the card?

2. I do not personally consider adjusting scans an agent of fraud. To me that is reserved for trimmed, recolored, swapped, and stolen cards. Part of selling is making the product seem appealing. If the scan was edited to hide something (paper loss-creases) I might consider otherwise, but simply adjusting the scan to make the card pop does not constitute fraud to me. Unethical maybe, but not fraud.

3. Use common sense. The card is slabbed poor with obvious creases. Yes, I know not all poor cards are built alike, but know what you are getting. I have purchased many lower grade cards before and never have I commented "I really thought it would present better" when I received them. They are poor for a reason.

4. A seller can ask whatever they want for card. It is their business. This isn't the late 80's and early 90's when everyone was a dealer and that was their livelihood. There are a few big time dealers left on the bay who make a living turning cardboard, but the vast majority are doctors, lawyers, educators, or businessmen and women first. It is not a job for them, it is a hobby and their family isn't going to go hungry because they wouldn't come down 10%-15% on a $3k card.

5. I'll over pay for a card that I really want. I am a very impulsive buyer. There are many collectors who are very selective and patient, but there are also many like me who, when they want it and have the cash, will jump on it. I had been following a card sitting on a 1k buy it now for almost a year. It was more likely a $600-650 card. It sold two weeks ago. I thought I knew who picked it up so I sent him an email. He was the one who finally bit and when I asked him if he thought it was a bad deal he responded that he hadn't seen another one come up in months and he really wanted it. He was happy. The seller was happy. Everyone was happy.

6. It is a baseball card.

Agree with everything you said Steven....but you lost me on this one-

"2. I do not personally consider adjusting scans an agent of fraud. To me that is reserved for trimmed, recolored, swapped, and stolen cards. Part of selling is making the product seem appealing. If the scan was edited to hide something (paper loss-creases) I might consider otherwise, but simply adjusting the scan to make the card pop does not constitute fraud to me. Unethical maybe, but not fraud."


Deceiving is fraud and making a scan look better than the card really is, is called deception. Plain and simple fraud to me. I guess it's debateable, just not in my mind.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Second of all if you had offers WAY above the almost $6,000 I last offered, you should have and already would sold it.

You assume too much in terms sales motivation.

No need to PM any further I was done with any potential transaction/discussion last week when I said no thank you nicely. I’m not offering up anyone else’s PM’s because those people aren’t in here claiming that simply because someone didn’t accept their offer to buy something, is unreasonable or a new form of sodomy.

You failed to see my point, lets get back to bumped scans and tweaked listings or as I call it every catalog.

John

[Runscott]

Internet forum hugeness ineptitude. Reminds me of this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LAnmnS0-9g

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

You assume too much in terms sales motivation.

No need to PM any further I was done with any potential transaction/discussion last week when I said no thank you nicely. I’m not offering up anyone else’s PM’s because those people aren’t in here claiming that simply because someone didn’t accept their offer to buy something, is unreasonable or a new form of sodomy.

You failed to see my point, lets get back to bumped scans and tweaked listings or as I call it every catalog.

John

You're not offering up because they don't exist.....now I'm convinced you think I'm a gullible idiot, thanks!

If you had a point to make in the first place I'd see it. Shoulda sent the PM.

[Matthew H]

Yeah Steve you also skipped over the lying in descriptions part, which was the original topic of this post.


-Matt

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Leon

Agree with everything you said Steven....but you lost me on this one-

"2. I do not personally consider adjusting scans an agent of fraud. To me that is reserved for trimmed, recolored, swapped, and stolen cards. Part of selling is making the product seem appealing. If the scan was edited to hide something (paper loss-creases) I might consider otherwise, but simply adjusting the scan to make the card pop does not constitute fraud to me. Unethical maybe, but not fraud."


Deceiving is fraud and making a scan look better than the card really is, is called deception. Plain and simple fraud to me. I guess it's debateable, just not in my mind.

Too me it is hard to say when a scan has been deceptively manipulated. A scanner is a camera, you have to chose the settings that best show the card to what you seen in hand on your monitor.

The problem is that not everyone uses a color management system so everyone's view is different. Also every scanner is different along with the default settings so what one person's scanner captures can be different then the next person. Then you add on top of that different scanning software. So really every you make a scan the software is making a tweak (whether you know it or not) to make the output on your monitor match the photo taken by the scanner.

So when every scan consists of at least three (scanner, software, monitor) different things to make the outcome. If you add printing a catalog into it then you have another adjustment from another outside company.

[sportscardpete]

willferrel.jpg

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

You're not offering up because they don't exist.....now I'm convinced you think I'm a gullible idiot, thanks!

If you had a point to make in the first place I'd see it. Shoulda sent the PM.

Why, after Leon asked for an end to this, is this still going on?

If you want to PM someone do it, don't ask that they send you the PM. Is this how the mob handles things now days?

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Why, after Leon asked for an end to this, is this still going on?

If you want to PM someone do it, don't ask that they send you the PM. Is this how the mob handles things now days?

Ask John.....

Since you're now an expert on mob dealings why don't you answer it tough guy...be careful now, don't tread where you have no f*cking clue where you're going or what you're talking about. You're better off letting this one go.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Why, after Leon asked for an end to this, is this still going on?

If you want to PM someone do it, don't ask that they send you the PM. Is this how the mob handles things now days?

Thanks Andy. I don't like to be too heavy handed but at some point I will get us back on track of the original subject. When members keep doing it and their posts end up saying "edited" I guess they will understand what I meant. I know both of the guys arguing and both are good guys...albeit type A personalities. Let's get back to beating up the real fraudsters, the way it should be.

And I will make it easy for the 2 parties involved. If either of you post in this thread anymore, and it doesn't have to do with the original post, I will edit it's contents completely out. Trust me.

[sbfinley]

Understandable opinion. What I stated was more of how I personally view the topic. I guess that it is largely contextual. Trimming a card's border is fraud no matter how much is cut. Using a stolen scan and shipping a different card to a buyer is obvious fraud. Adjusting a scan is not the same to me. Eye appeal is subjective. If a seller brightens a scan to make a card standout, but when I receive the card I am happy with its appearance was I truly defrauded? If I chose to sell it one day, the amount that I receive depends on the several factors: the grade, the market, and how the card appeals to the buyers. If the next owner is equally as happy then no one is the chain was defrauded. Other people probably look at the situation differently and that is completely acceptable.

Originally Posted by Leon

Agree with everything you said Steven....but you lost me on this one-

"2. I do not personally consider adjusting scans an agent of fraud. To me that is reserved for trimmed, recolored, swapped, and stolen cards. Part of selling is making the product seem appealing. If the scan was edited to hide something (paper loss-creases) I might consider otherwise, but simply adjusting the scan to make the card pop does not constitute fraud to me. Unethical maybe, but not fraud."


Deceiving is fraud and making a scan look better than the card really is, is called deception. Plain and simple fraud to me. I guess it's debateable, just not in my mind.