It's now official - Mastro trimmed hisT206 Wagner

ruth-gehrig · #1 04-11-2013, 08:21 AM

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

slidekellyslide · #2 04-11-2013, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

Inexperienced grader.

bigwinnerx · #3 04-11-2013, 08:53 AM

Think it'll go for more. It has a story...and what a story. It's not just one of the regular others that come up with every passing REA auction. Gretzky, trimmed, various lawsuits and court cases...it's like a crime novel.

If you have 2 million to spend on a card, it's not your last dollars anyway, and it's a/the storied Wagner. Think of the auction description book that'll be written to describe it and the stories you'll get to pass on at your next swank cocktail party.

slidekellyslide · #4 04-11-2013, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwinnerx

Think it'll go for more. It has a story...and what a story. It's not just one of the regular others that come up with every passing REA auction. Gretzky, trimmed, various lawsuits and court cases...it's like a crime novel.

If you have 2 million to spend on a card, it's not your last dollars anyway, and it's a/the storied Wagner. Think of the auction description book that'll be written to describe it and the stories you'll get to pass on at your next swank cocktail party.

The Cobb/Edwards Wagner has a story too....how much would it sell for?

ruth-gehrig · #5 04-11-2013, 09:00 AM

I believe the main issue for us smaller people who can't afford million dollar cards and this hobby as a whole is how many other cards are in holders that don't match the card? How did it get slabbed that way? If it was a collaboration between Mastro and PSA/Orlando will it get admitted to???

E93 · #6 04-11-2013, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

If it was a collaboration between Mastro and PSA/Orlando will it get admitted to???

For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates. The Jumbo would probably rank around #5 IMHO. It is a phenomenal card, but there are a few that are slightly better in my opinion, mostly due to not having the angle cut and top of the the adjoining card on the sheet showing.
JimB

Peter_Spaeth · #7 04-11-2013, 11:46 AM

Jim, notwithstanding his non-involvement I suspect Joe Orlando has known the truth about the card for some time, but that's just a personal opinion. It will be very interesting to see what David Hall -- who was there -- directs PSA to do now.

wonkaticket · #8 04-11-2013, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E93

For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates. The Jumbo would probably rank around #5 IMHO. It is a phenomenal card, but there are a few that are slightly better in my opinion, mostly due to not having the angle cut and top of the the adjoining card on the sheet showing.
JimB

+1

auggiedoggy · #9 04-11-2013, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E93

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates.
JimB

Why on earth would someone not have their raw Wagner T206 graded and slabbed?

g_vezina_c55 · #10 04-11-2013, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The finest untrimmed Wagner is owned by one of our board members and he has no intention of ever getting it professionally graded. He's simply not interested and doesn't care.

Any pic ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by E93

For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates. The Jumbo would probably rank around #5 IMHO. It is a phenomenal card, but there are a few that are slightly better in my opinion, mostly due to not having the angle cut and top of the the adjoining card on the sheet showing.
JimB

It is verry cool that 3 great condition Wagner is still Raw in private collection

Any pic of these 3 Raw Wagner ?

Shoele$$ · #11 04-11-2013, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E93

For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

Exactly, Joe is what in his late 30's? That puts him around 16-17 years old when the card was graded. He was still popping pimples and learning how to drive when that decision was being made. A little too much emphasis on Orlando when it comes to PSA's role in the card, lol.

lharri3600 · #12 04-11-2013, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

Now that's an ez one!

KCRfan1 · #13 04-11-2013, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

That's my question too. PSA looses a lot of credibility in my eyes ( even though I buy raw ) and I would think the collectors who only collect PSA or graded cards have to ask the same question. Do ANY of the grading companies measure the cards for correct size or do cards just pass an eye test? Grading is all over the place. Look at any PSA 5 and you will find card quality of all sorts. Yes, I resent the grading companies as a contributor to driving up the prices of cards. Before the grading companies, the cards we purchased had to pass a test, a test of our own eyes. This Wagner should be graded Authentic, evidence of trimming ( or trimmed ) therefore reducing the price / value of the card significantly. I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.

Tanman7baseball · #14 04-11-2013, 10:43 PM

I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.[/QUOTE]

Lawyers who are viewing this thread please correct me if I'm wrong..

If Orlando filed for a case, PSA will only be involved if proven to knowingly grade the card with the knowledge of Mastro's trimming. PSA is not liable if they did not know Mastro trimmed it because their duty is to grade/authenticate a card in a reasonable manner. If somehow it is proven PSA breached this duty then they are with recovering the damages. But in the end it's an opinion service, and their reputation is the only thing that will be effected until proven otherwise.

I Only Smoke 4 the Cards · #15 04-12-2013, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tanman7baseball

I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.

As a lawyer I think that PSA is in a sticky situation. They face some liability because the grader said that he knew the card was trimmed, but still gave it a numerical grade. The real question is will Kendrick, the only person with standing to bring a claim, sue the company. The article seems to indicate that he will not.

Another intersting question is what if any liability they face for allowing the card to remain encapsulated at this point. The cards encapsulation is their seal of approval that the card is an 8 - now it has been legally established that it is altered, thus an A. I am not sure of their policies but I would imagine that there is a provision, or should be, that allows them to buy back cards that were fraudulently encapsulated and remove them. Again issue stems from the knowing encapsulation of the fraudlent card - I would love to see the Justice Department's position.

Kenny Cole · #16 04-12-2013, 11:25 PM

[QUOTE] The real question is will Kendrick, the only person with standing to bring a claim, sue the company. The article seems to indicate that he will not.
[QUOTE]

I don't think that statement is accurate at all. IMO, those with standing to sue are everyone who got bid up and purchased the card based upon the false impression that it was actually an 8. The grader's statement makes it real ugly -- sort of in the category of fraud per se. In that regard, PSA certainly can't claim that it didn't expect buyers to rely upon the grade it gave because reliance upon the grade is precisely what it has been selling since day one.

Every purchaser who spent more than they would have had the true condition of the card been disclosed has a claim IMO. There may be defenses to the claim, like the Statute of Limitations, but I'm not seeing them working so well with respect to this particular card. It will be interesting to see what transpires.

I Only Smoke 4 the Cards · #17 04-13-2013, 01:24 PM

[QUOTE=Kenny Cole;1116889][QUOTE] The real question is will Kendrick, the only person with standing to bring a claim, sue the company. The article seems to indicate that he will not.

Quote:

I don't think that statement is accurate at all. IMO, those with standing to sue are everyone who got bid up and purchased the card based upon the false impression that it was actually an 8. The grader's statement makes it real ugly -- sort of in the category of fraud per se. In that regard, PSA certainly can't claim that it didn't expect buyers to rely upon the grade it gave because reliance upon the grade is precisely what it has been selling since day one.

Every purchaser who spent more than they would have had the true condition of the card been disclosed has a claim IMO. There may be defenses to the claim, like the Statute of Limitations, but I'm not seeing them working so well with respect to this particular card. It will be interesting to see what transpires.

I disagree with you 100%. Every purchaser of the card sold it for a profit. They haven't suffered any harm and thus have no standing to bring a claim. The only person who did suffer harm is Kendrick.

nolemmings · #18 04-13-2013, 01:47 PM

First, be careful using the term standing. They may not have an ultimately successful claim for which relief may be granted, but as prior owners of the card who would in some fashion argue that they were impacted by the fraud, they would likely have standing. True they would have to prove damage to sustain the claim, but depending on how they framed their pleadings they should beat any standing claim as such.

As for your assertion that only Mr. Kendrick suffered harm, how is that so unless and until he can show it is worth less than what he paid for it--otherwise he too has a profit (or net zero), and what evidence would you propose he use to show that?

travrosty · #19 04-11-2013, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

That's my question too. PSA looses a lot of credibility in my eyes ( even though I buy raw ) and I would think the collectors who only collect PSA or graded cards have to ask the same question. Do ANY of the grading companies measure the cards for correct size or do cards just pass an eye test? Grading is all over the place. Look at any PSA 5 and you will find card quality of all sorts. Yes, I resent the grading companies as a contributor to driving up the prices of cards. Before the grading companies, the cards we purchased had to pass a test, a test of our own eyes. This Wagner should be graded Authentic, evidence of trimming ( or trimmed ) therefore reducing the price / value of the card significantly. I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.

just pass an eye test most of the time, on psa's site, they answer the question if they put a ruler to every card, and the answer is no.

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