REA Gary Cooper

thecatspajamas · #1 04-30-2013, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelly

Gary Cooper’s daughter, Maria Cooper-Janis, responded to our inquiry and said, “I, of course, have seen that photograph in our family archives, (and) have several shots of Gary Cooper and Babe Ruth at some moment, but none of them are autographed and the picture you refer to was never in our possession.”

Going back to Shelly's original quote from Cooper's daughter, it sounds to me like this is a little different than someone's grandchild saying "Grandaddy never signed with that nickname" or something similar. I would also note that Cooper's daughter did not make any statement, yea or nea, as to whether she thought the autograph was authentic or not (at least, not in the quote). No offense intended to Rhys, but I think this situation is a little different. What she did say is that there has never been a Ruth-signed photo of Cooper and Ruth in their archives.

I don't know what the "family archives" of the Cooper family look like, or how they are catalogued, but it strikes me they are probably a bit more organized than the typical photo album and firebox full of important papers that most families keep. Even if not, as Jim said originally, "Certainly this photo would have been one of her most PRIZED rememberences of her father." Moreover, this doesn't seem like something that Cooper would have given away before his passing, given that it was personalized, and that he kept other, unsigned photos.

Bottom line is, you can poke at the reliability of provenance and question relatives' memories all you want, but I don't think this is as easy to dismiss. Cooper's daughter doesn't have anything to gain either way, and her remembering whether or not her daddy had a photo signed by arguably the most famous baseball player in history is a different thing altogether than her looking at a Gary Cooper signature and opining whether her daddy signed it or not. The latter requires training and experience. The former requires an average ability to remember very basic details.

Just my 2 cents on it

chaddurbin · #2 04-30-2013, 11:49 AM

no opinion on the sig, but i have to agree with rhys. going by family member's account or memory can be an iffy proposition. unless she was the curator or cataloger for her dad's collection, her account is just one piece to the puzzle and not the be all end all to the discussion.

Runscott · #3 04-30-2013, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

no opinion on the sig, but i have to agree with rhys. going by family member's account or memory can be an iffy proposition. unless she was the curator or cataloger for her dad's collection, her account is just one piece to the puzzle and not the be all end all to the discussion.

So if you can't prove that something is bad, it must be good. And negative provenance from family members can't be used?

Forgers all over the world are making a great living based on collectors who use that logic.

Think about it - this should make you kind of sick: A good forger is sitting in a coffee shop, creating a signed item. When he's done, he can send it to a TPA and probably have a good chance of getting it authenticated. Then he sells it to someone who is unscrupulous, but who has a good imagination and no integrity.

Now all he needs is an auction house that relies on the expertise of the said TPA (and certainly could not care less what people on an internet forum have to say), and two bidders who want the said autograph, and who put all of their faith in TPAs as well.

Job done.

Could I get a refill please? ...and could I borrow a pen? cha-ching

(edited to remove 'Ruth' references, as you can't get the required pen at a coffee shop)

shelly · #4 04-30-2013, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

no opinion on the sig, but i have to agree with rhys. going by family member's account or memory can be an iffy proposition. unless she was the curator or cataloger for her dad's collection, her account is just one piece to the puzzle and not the be all end all to the discussion.

USC School of Cinematic art. has been dealing with her since her farther died. She was 21 and in total control of everything and anything. I would trust her more than anyone that is part of this story.UCS cant even buy anything from her. They are really hopeing that she will give them her collection in the future. If you doubt what I am saying. Please email the above.

thecatspajamas · #5 04-30-2013, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

no opinion on the sig, but i have to agree with rhys. going by family member's account or memory can be an iffy proposition. unless she was the curator or cataloger for her dad's collection, her account is just one piece to the puzzle and not the be all end all to the discussion.

I didn't say it was the "be all and end all to the discussion," but am saying don't just throw it out completely with a catch-all "family members' memory can be iffy" disclaimer as others seem so quick to do.

Was she the curator for Cooper's collection? Does she have intimate knowledge of the "things" he left behind when he passed? Or was she just speaking offhandedly about some photos she vaguely recalled of her dad in a baseball uniform? Based on Shelly's quote, I would tend to believe she is more the former than the latter, but either way, I think it bears further exploration rather than immediate dismissal.

Edited to add: There you go. Thanks Shelly for clearing up what kind of authority she is on the subject. That's what I get for taking longer than 6 minutes to type a post

jgmp123 · #6 04-30-2013, 12:30 PM

SERIOUS QUESTION:

Does anyone know if any of the TPA's have annual reports that they release? Data detailing Total # of rejects, verse accepts?

chaddurbin · #7 04-30-2013, 12:45 PM

obviously some opinions from family members are more weighted than others due to their level of involvement. i'm not dismissing the testimonial at all, and shelly has done some research into the daughter so we can put hers higher up. however if you ask my wife, or most members' wives here...i don't think they can differentiate whether i own a jeter or a pujols, much less a cobb or a wagner.

and the forgers in their basements perfecting their craft on ruths and gehrigs, it won't be for the "cooper ruth" where the lineage can possibly be traced back. it will be some bland 3x5 or scuffled reach ball, so at the end of the day it'll be whether the sig is good or not...and as often the time comes like the ruth 700th hr ticket you'll have some experts believe it's good while others don't.

shelly · #8 04-30-2013, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

obviously some opinions from family members are more weighted than others due to their level of involvement. i'm not dismissing the testimonial at all, and shelly has done some research into the daughter so we can put hers higher up. however if you ask my wife, or most members' wives here...i don't think they can differentiate whether i own a jeter or a pujols, much less a cobb or a wagner.

and the forgers in their basements perfecting their craft on ruths and gehrigs, it won't be for the "cooper ruth" where the lineage can possibly be traced back. it will be some bland 3x5 or scuffled reach ball, so at the end of the day it'll be whether the sig is good or not...and as often the time comes like the ruth 700th hr ticket you'll have some experts believe it's good while others don't.

I would agree if this was not a very significant piece. This was given to her father from someone as famous or more famous than him. It was for a movie where he was nominated for an Oscar. I really dont think you would forget seeing it no matter what.

mr2686 · #9 04-30-2013, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

and the forgers in their basements perfecting their craft on ruths and gehrigs, it won't be for the "cooper ruth" where the lineage can possibly be traced back. it will be some bland 3x5 or scuffled reach ball, so at the end of the day it'll be whether the sig is good or not...and as often the time comes like the ruth 700th hr ticket you'll have some experts believe it's good while others don't.

Well...not so sure about that. Chris wrote last year about a Babe Ruth signed bat to Gary Cooper that was bad, so just because the lineage can be traced doesn't mean that people will do it before buying.

Runscott · #10 04-30-2013, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

and the forgers in their basements perfecting their craft on ruths and gehrigs, it won't be for the "cooper ruth" where the lineage can possibly be traced back. it will be some bland 3x5 or scuffled reach ball, so at the end of the day it'll be whether the sig is good or not...and as often the time comes like the ruth 700th hr ticket you'll have some experts believe it's good while others don't.

This thread is ABOUT a Ruth on a Cooper photo, that many people here think looks pretty much perfect. You yourself discounted the provenance of the family's word! If you had the cash in hand, and none of us were here to tell you to do otherwise, I'm guessing you might be high bidder right now.

Edited to add: You know no one's going to cut you much slack in a thread like this. I hope you have thick skin

I also appreciate yours and Rhys' 'glass half-full' approach to viewing autographs. It's certainly a more positive way of looking at them, but I guess my 'half empty' view will leave me Ruthless in Seattle. Yes...finally got to use that one.

travrosty · #11 04-30-2013, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgmp123

SERIOUS QUESTION:

Does anyone know if any of the TPA's have annual reports that they release? Data detailing Total # of rejects, verse accepts?

no data ever gets released from the tpa's to help collectors, ever.

slidekellyslide · #12 04-30-2013, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travrosty

no data ever gets released from the tpa's to help collectors, ever.

I said it before and I believe it to be true...they make a lot of money off of the forgers. If there were no forgery there would be no need for TPA's.

shelly · #13 04-30-2013, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I said it before and I believe it to be true...they make a lot of money off of the forgers. If there were no forgery there would be no need for TPA's.

That was even too profond for me.

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