What the future holds in the autograph industry

[packs]

Doesn't everyone pretty much only buy from reputable sources when we're talking about a high dollar signature? If we're talking about going back to a system where collectors are only buying from reputable dealers, I feel like that is already where we are when it comes to high dollar items.

Yes it is true that there are times these reputable dealers (auctions houses) get things wrong. But isn't that going to be true regardless of whose opinion is attached to an item? Won't there always be mistakes? I'm just not clear as to what you're after. It seems like people are upset that there's no accountability when it comes to TPA's getting it wrong. But what else can someone do but offer their best opinion and refund you if they're wrong?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by packs

Doesn't everyone pretty much only buy from reputable sources when we're talking about a high dollar signature? If we're talking about going back to a system where collectors are only buying from reputable dealers, I feel like that is already where we are when it comes to high dollar items.

Yes it is true that there are times these reputable dealers (auctions houses) get things wrong. But isn't that going to be true regardless of whose opinion is attached to an item? Won't there always be mistakes? I'm just not clear as to what you're after. It seems like people are upset that there's no accountability when it coems to TPA's getting it wrong. But what else can someone do but offer their best opinion and refund you if they're wrong?

I would think no. It seems as if a lot of peole who purchase the high dollar items get them for the conversation aspect of the piece, not for a specific collecting purpose (ego). So with that, they may not have the general knowledge to pursue a reputable dealer, and will go thru an auction house for the purchase with a TPA cert, IMO.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

I would think no. It seems as if a lot of peole who purchase the high dollar items get them for the conversation aspect of the piece, not for a specific collecting purpose (ego). So with that, they may not have the general knowledge to pursue a reputable dealer, and will go thru an auction house for the purchase with a TPA cert, IMO.

Interested what the difference is btwn a reputable "dealer" and a reputable "auction house" is. They are both out to make money on you.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Interested what the difference is btwn a reputable "dealer" and a reputable "auction house" is. They are both out to make money on you.

Seems like the ones with less knowledge feel more comfortable with an auction house because of the image, marketing, return policies and publicity etc etc etc. With the dealers, they may not think they are an expert in the autograph authentications (unlike us that know from being on the board that we have very reputable dealers in all areas of autograph certification).

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

Doesn't everyone pretty much only buy from reputable sources when we're talking about a high dollar signature? If we're talking about going back to a system where collectors are only buying from reputable dealers, I feel like that is already where we are when it comes to high dollar items.

Yes it is true that there are times these reputable dealers (auctions houses) get things wrong. But isn't that going to be true regardless of whose opinion is attached to an item? Won't there always be mistakes? I'm just not clear as to what you're after. It seems like people are upset that there's no accountability when it comes to TPA's getting it wrong. But what else can someone do but offer their best opinion and refund you if they're wrong?

If you are responding to my post, you really need to take what you're responding to in context with the rest of what I discussed - specifically, the fact that TPA's weren't around in the 'old days', and that forgeries have improved. As far as 'buying from reputable sources', there's a bit more to that comment I made - forgers are counting on many to buy without asking questions, since they put blind faith in the LOA's.

'Best opinions' and refunds are great, but keep in mind that there are scam artists making a fortune off such a business policy. They sell ten great forgeries and if they have to give a refund on a few, they still fleeced the buyers who didn't ask for a refund.

I just would like to see the TPA's take more time on the high-dollar items, perhaps even hiring people with better skills - which might mean PSA and SGC agreeing to bump up their prices for highly-forged autographs such as Ruth. In addition, if 'we' (not me) are counting on them to 'promise' us a signature is real, I'd like to feel confident that they are aware of all the 'tells' that we discuss (or don't discuss) in this forum. Hell, they are charging as if they are experts.

[7nohitter]

The future does not hold much without Jim Stinson. Congratulations to the few, meandering rubes who couldn't get heir heads out of their behinds and ran off one of the greatest contributors to this hobby.

And.R.ew Mi.ll.e&r

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Runscott

If you are responding to my post, you really need to take what you're responding to in context with the rest of what I discussed - specifically, the fact that TPA's weren't around in the 'old days', and that forgeries have improved. As far as 'buying from reputable sources', there's a bit more to that comment I made - forgers are counting on many to buy without asking questions, since they put blind faith in the LOA's.

'Best opinions' and refunds are great, but keep in mind that there are scam artists making a fortune off such a business policy. They sell ten great forgeries and if they have to give a refund on a few, they still fleeced the buyers who didn't ask for a refund.

I just would like to see the TPA's take more time on the high-dollar items, perhaps even hiring people with better skills - which might mean PSA and SGC agreeing to bump up their prices for highly-forged autographs such as Ruth. In addition, if 'we' (not me) are counting on them to 'promise' us a signature is real, I'd like to feel confident that they are aware of all the 'tells' that we discuss (or don't discuss) in this forum. Hell, they are charging as if they are experts.

I agree completely.

[shelly]

The one thing missing in that post is do the auction houses refund money. I seem to remember the Jim read into REA auctions all sales finale. If you find it not be authentic a year from now do you really have a chance to get your money back?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by shelly

The one thing missing in that post is do the auction houses refund money. I seem to remember the Jim read into REA auctions all sales finale. If you find it not be authentic a year from now do you really have a chance to get your money back?

I think if it could be proven, as in not solely relying on another opinion, but on the dating of the material or something objective like that, then I trust that REA would refund the purchase. However, those instances are pretty rare.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by shelly

The one thing missing in that post is do the auction houses refund money. I seem to remember the Jim read into REA auctions all sales finale. If you find it not be authentic a year from now do you really have a chance to get your money back?

Shelly,

I would ask the exact same question of a dealer. I would guess a dealer who thinks very highly of their own opinion would question the buyer and ask for proof. I really doubt they would just refund say 3-5k for a gehrig or ruth no questions asked after a year.
Also... let's say a dealer passes away..no one lives forever.. what is the recourse now??
Ultimately, the purchaser needs to and should trust their own opinion and not rely on others. If they choose not to, they are untimately trusting people trying to sell them something regardless. That is why I think it is important to help educate collectors rather than create "secret societies"(seemingly) if one with info truly wants to help the hobby.
This is my opinion whether we are talking cards, photos, autos ect. .

[packs]

I was sold a bad Ruth by Lelands. When I called them to let them know about my worries they paid for the item to be looked at by JSA, which deemed it not authentic. I was then given a refund and a voucher for a future auction.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by packs

I was sold a bad Ruth by Lelands. When I called them to let them know about my worries they paid for the item to be looked at by JSA, which deemed it not authentic. I was then given a refund and a voucher for a future auction.

There you go.. I guess it would depend on the dealer or auction house whether or not you would get the same result. I am glad it worked out for you. Do you have a scan of the Ruth? It would be interesting to see what others thought of it.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Runscott

If you are responding to my post, you really need to take what you're responding to in context with the rest of what I discussed - specifically, the fact that TPA's weren't around in the 'old days', and that forgeries have improved. As far as 'buying from reputable sources', there's a bit more to that comment I made - forgers are counting on many to buy without asking questions, since they put blind faith in the LOA's.

'Best opinions' and refunds are great, but keep in mind that there are scam artists making a fortune off such a business policy. They sell ten great forgeries and if they have to give a refund on a few, they still fleeced the buyers who didn't ask for a refund.

I just would like to see the TPA's take more time on the high-dollar items, perhaps even hiring people with better skills - which might mean PSA and SGC agreeing to bump up their prices for highly-forged autographs such as Ruth. In addition, if 'we' (not me) are counting on them to 'promise' us a signature is real, I'd like to feel confident that they are aware of all the 'tells' that we discuss (or don't discuss) in this forum. Hell, they are charging as if they are experts.

I really like what you said and agree. With those high profile autos, even having an outside source to verify would significantly improve the hobby. I wouldn't mind paying more to even have Jim, Richard, Chris, Travis or David look at high profile autographs to ensure the authenticity of said item.

I honestly do not get why they don't consult to some of the leading individuals whom specialize in a specific individual player to get the most definitive answer rather than saying 'it looks like it may be authentic'

[chaddurbin]

is keating still a consultant for PSA/DNA? i see his profile on the homepage. if someone submit a stack of signed ruths/gehrigs i would hope they give him a call, and leave the jr varsity stuff to grad.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

is keating still a consultant for PSA/DNA? i see his profile on the homepage. if someone submit a stack of signed ruths/gehrigs i would hope they give him a call, and leave the jr varsity stuff to grad.

the consultant names for these abc, xyz companies are mostly for show. they dont show them all the signatures in their specialty. more than once did the specialist not see the autographs that is in their specialty, with the authentication company bypassing them even though they are on their roster.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

is keating still a consultant for PSA/DNA? i see his profile on the homepage. if someone submit a stack of signed ruths/gehrigs i would hope they give him a call, and leave the jr varsity stuff to grad.

As I understand it, Kevin is basically the top of the food chain at PSA, but doesn't work for them directly. He is available for consultation on ones Grad and/or others aren't sure about. Spence uses him for that purpose, too, but without any formal association.