Our open forum.......

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

The forum should generally be open, but things like slander and libel shouldn't be accepted. There needs to be limits in order to protect people's reputations for the good of the hobby. Now, if people can provide evidence for their accusations, it is one thing... but other times things have gone too far.

Sometimes the board can become too ugly and there needs to be better controls in place... "freedom of speech" only goes so far - like in our country, there needs to be limits. The idea that freedom of speech means that anyone can say anything at any time is an oversimplification of an ideal.

So basically I feel that the complaint is legitimate and what is tolerated/accepted on the board ought to be examined and reconsidered... not in the spirit of quashing people's ability to post, but in the spirit of allowing people to protect themselves and not get unjustly slammed by others on a public forum.

I disagree with "freedom of speech only goes so far". Any free person should be allowed to say anything they want, at any time, regardless of whether someone else likes it or not. I don't like everything I hear or read, but I always respect their right to say or write it. This is America. That's why it is the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights.

Sincerely, Clayton

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I disagree with "freedom of speech only goes so far". Any free person should be allowed to say anything they want, at any time, regardless of whether someone else likes it or not. I don't like everything I hear or read, but I always respect their right to say or write it. This is America. That's why it is the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights.

Sincerely, Clayton

Clayton, those aren't actually the laws in our country, that "Any free person should be allowed to say anything they want, at any time, regardless of whether someone else likes it or not." Perfect example is that you are not allowed to yell "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater.

Same thing applies to slander and libel... unfortunately, the concept that it is somehow American that anyone can say anything at anytime is not only false, but has never been the case at all.

Here's to the common sense suggested by bigtrain and the original plaintiff that we all shouldn't have to spend tens of thousands on a courtcase just because Leon holds an ideology about an "open" forum that actually isn't the American Way, never was and probably never will be.

Here's some evidence to that effect:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ech_exceptions

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Clayton, those aren't actually the laws in our country, that "Any free person should be allowed to say anything they want, at any time, regardless of whether someone else likes it or not." Perfect example is that you are not allowed to yell "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater.

Same thing applies to slander and libel... unfortunately, the concept that it is somehow American that anyone can say anything at anytime is not only false, but has never been the case at all.

Here's to the common sense suggested by bigtrain and the original plaintiff that we all shouldn't have to spend tens of thousands on a courtcase just because Leon holds an ideology about an "open" forum that actually isn't the American Way, never was and probably never will be.

Here's some evidence to that effect:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ech_exceptions

I have found that well thought out rebuttals to someone's accusations are quite effective in swaying a conversation. It wouldn't take me thousands of dollars to dispute an accusation that I shill bid (which I have never done).

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have found that well thought out rebuttals to someone's accusations are quite effective in swaying a conversation. It wouldn't take me thousands of dollars to dispute an accusation that I shill bid (which I have never done).

Yes, but the damage is still done by the original accusation. That's why they call it slander, because even if you deny it, many will still believe the false rumors.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Clayton, those aren't actually the laws in our country, that "Any free person should be allowed to say anything they want, at any time, regardless of whether someone else likes it or not." Perfect example is that you are not allowed to yell "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater.

Same thing applies to slander and libel... unfortunately, the concept that it is somehow American that anyone can say anything at anytime is not only false, but has never been the case at all.

Here's to the common sense suggested by bigtrain and the original plaintiff that we all shouldn't have to spend tens of thousands on a courtcase just because Leon holds an ideology about an "open" forum that actually isn't the American Way, never was and probably never will be.

Here's some evidence to that effect:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ech_exceptions

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, OR ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, or the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

I laugh when people try to use the old "can't yell fire in a theatre" thing to justify putting limits on free speech. And then you talk about "the American Way"? Lately, people are losing sight of what the "American Way" really means.

Sincerely, Clayton

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, OR ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, or the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

I laugh when people try to use the old "can't yell fire in a theatre" thing to justify putting limits on free speech. And then you talk about "the American Way"? Lately, people are losing sight of what the "American Way" really means.

Sincerely, Clayton

I know what the first amendment says, but that's not how it's applied in America today. The limits override that... It is U.S. Law as it exists today.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

I know what the first amendment says, but that's not how it's applied in America today. The limits override that... It is U.S. Law as it exists today.

How it's applied?

The first amendment is what it always was. Nothing overrides it. You can be held accountable for what you say- but, you DO have a right to say it.

Sincerely, Clayton

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

How it's applied?

The first amendment is what it always was. Nothing overrides it. You can be held accountable for what you say- but, you DO have a right to say it.

Sincerely, Clayton

Clayton, sorry buddy, but you're mistaken. There are limits to freedom of speech in this country. Just saying otherwise doesn't change the reality of the situation. I don't think I can go any further with you on this.

[Wymers Auction]

I agree with Leon, but I think as we post on this board we should be careful of wild speculations that could hurt the livelihood of others. For example, I have seen many times where people come on here about Ebay sellers and feel like they have been shilled only to have it pointed out by others that it was not the case. Yes it was corrected, but that person's reputation has been questioned and for what reason? I like most of what I read, but I will admit there are a few people that do not believe there is a single honest AH or Ebay seller. I do not think we should change the way the board here is ran, but we do have a responsibility to be fair and honest in our statements as it deals with others.

[barrysloate]

I make a distinction between Freedom of Speech, something we are all constitutionally guaranteed; and intelligent speech, something we all need to develop. I suppose we can say any crazy thing we want to, but we are all better served if we think first and say something worthwhile.

Everything posted on this board may be allowed, but it's not always intelligent.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Clayton, sorry buddy, but you're mistaken. There are limits to freedom of speech in this country. Just saying otherwise doesn't change the reality of the situation. I don't think I can go any further with you on this.

cyseymour,

Sorry buddy, but I'm not mistaken. Actually Barry is correct. But, according to your logic, Rock Master Scott must have been arrested every time he performed this song live, right?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5B2Fzumzo8

I don't think I can go any further with you on this either. I hope people never buy into the theory that there are "limits to freedom of speech". You can be held accountable for what you say (example: seditious speech) but you are still free to say what you please in America.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Peter_Spaeth]

If someone makes a defamatory remark, that's their responsibility and problem, not the forum. I think the current policy is fine.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If someone makes a defamatory remark, that's their responsibility and problem, not the forum. I think the current policy is fine.

Pretty much in a nutshell...

This isn't the only open forum with the same policies on the web. It's been working roughly the same way since web based message boards first started in the mid 90's with the dawn of the Internet age. This really isn't anything new.

Leon you gave the best response possible, it was handled the right way.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Leon, you did the right thing.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If someone makes a defamatory remark, that's their responsibility and problem, not the forum. I think the current policy is fine.

The concern stated in this thread is not a matter of the consequences for the slanderer, but for the consequences for the slandered.

[Rich Klein]

That one of the best things about this board is the right to defenc yourself by knowing exactly whom is saying certain things about you.

That is an American belief and as such, as long as the person puts their name behind their beliefs then I'm OK with what is being said.

In the case of someone such as Ken Thimmel (I never got my lithograph either for signing up); the evidence against him is overwhelming,,

Leon, it sounds like you are dead on and enjoy the weekend.

Rich

[Texxxx]

There are many restrictions on the First Amendment freedom of speech clause. It does not allow anyone to say anything they want. Some examples that have been upheld in courts are:
1. Obscenity - Many restrictions here.
2. Speech in schools - Kids cant wear anything on there clothes, etc.
3. Political speech - Anonymous advertising, etc.
4. Commercial speech - Must be truthful, etc.

That being said I go along with Leon policy of having a open forum. I also believe that anyone that makes statements towards other people should have there name up front. Full name not names with symbols. People that continue to liable other people without proof should be dealt with in some manner.

[cyseymour]

sorry, double post - was working off my cellphone. Pls delete. Thanks.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If someone makes a defamatory remark, that's their responsibility and problem, not the forum. I think the current policy is fine.

I totally agree.

I believe this forum has been a major asset to the hobby and has been highly instrumental in alerting people of many of the problems in the hobby.

If someone just cuts loose with malicious attacks, they will likely be sued. The fact that Leon requires full identity disclosure seems to minimize that problem. There are checks and balances in all of this.