1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth sells for more than the T206 Wagner

[ullmandds]

Adrian...I have to disagree...as more and more people die...who may have seen mantle play...who have this form of disposable income...the demand for his cards will go down. People like you...who at your age idolize mantle...are a small minority.

[Zone91]

ullmandds

Could be the case but no one here has ever seen Ruth play or Wagner for that matter or Ty Cobb and their cards are going up and up and up...so I believe Mantle will do just fine....Mantle will always be remembered in baseball as is Ruth. The 2 biggest names in baseball are Ruth and Mantle and they are legends people will remember and if not they will read books and watch online videos and get into buying them. There are SO many ways now to learn about these guys (Internet for one) that people will continue to enjoy collecting them down the road.

The 52 Topps Mantle is to Iconic and that will not change for some card printed in say 1990 or 2012. It is the face of modern day baseball...no way some newer printed card will take its place...way to many exist in high grade....who truly cares about 1/1 modern day cards unless it is a Ruth or a Mantle or some other legend of the game that played long ago.

Post # 4

[ullmandds]

sorry Adrian...I still disagree!!!!!! Ruth has 714...a lifetime BA of .342...incredible pitching stats...Cobb had 4191...lifetime BA unfathomable .367...Mantle was revered by many who watched him play for his power...and clutch...but his #'s...in my opinion will not stand the test of time...just my opinion.

I certainly respect and appreciate your enthusiasm...and your opinion...noone knows...we're just speculating.

[Zone91]

The 52 Topps Mantle is like Detective comics # 27 the 1st appearance of Batman and the Babe Ruth is like Action comics # 1 the 1st appearance of Superman people will never forget those like they will never forget these 2 baseball players.

There is NO way Barry Bonds with 762 homers will EVER be collected like Ruth or Mantle same goes for Hank Aaron....much less people talk about Aaron than Mantle even if Aaron was a much better player...that is why true legends will always be popular and collected.

Post # 5

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Zone91

The 52 Topps Mantle is like Detective comics # 27 the 1st appearance of Batman and the Babe Ruth is like Action comics # 1 the 1st appearance of Superman people will never forget those like they will never forget these 2 baseball players.

There is NO way Barry Bonds with 762 homers will EVER be collected like Ruth or Mantle same goes for Hank Aaron....much less people talk about Aaron than Mantle even if Aaron was a much better player...that is why true legends will always be popular and collected.

Post # 5

While some of that is true, the reason is a bit off in my opinion.

Ruth is by far the best hitter of his era, and barring injury from overwork (which was likely at the time) would probably have been one of the best pitchers. There aren't many players witht that sort of all around combination.

Mantle was certainly among the best of his era, but not a clear #1. Yes, he fought off a bunch of injuries, but so have other players who aren't regarded as highly. I think a lot of the Mantle thing is that he played in New York, through an era when the other two NY teams lost some fan base and moved west. Mays would probably be thought of the same way had the Giants stayed in NY.

Aaron was a generally quiet guy playing for a team in a far less media intensive market. And while he didn't put up insanely flashy numbers in any one season (For the era) He did perform at a very high level for a long time. 17 straight years in the top 10 in the league for HR. Some of what he accomplished won't happen again anytime soon. More players are either driven out because they become too expensive, or simply leave because they have enough money and aren't willing to play through a few years of chronic injury. Or a combination of both.

I'd have to agree about Bonds though. He was a great player, but was far too abrasive compared to players during the same time. I think he might have broken the career HR record without steroids, just a year or two later (Or three depending on how he aged) But a bad attitude in a small media market just doesn't lead anywhere good.

Steve B

[Zone91]

steve B

Same could be said if Adolf Hitler came from Canada....but history is history and he did not so everyone remembers him as the # 1 villain of humankind.

No one can change the past...Aaron lucked out in fame versus Mantle just the way things went down.

Post # 9

[Zone91]

It is like the great artist in painting no modern day painter will be as popular as the greats from the past just will not happen EVEN if most today paint better!!! Who in his right mind would pay 100$ million dollars for a modern day painting (and for me same goes for any old painting but people do pay that kind of money why because they are Legends in their field).

Post # 10

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Zone91

It is like the great artist in painting no modern day painter will be as popular as the greats from the past just will not happen EVEN if most today paint better!!! Who in his right mind would pay 100$ million dollars for a modern day painting (and for me same goes for any old painting but people do why because they are Legends in their field).

Post # 10

Oh, those modern paintings can go for quite a bit of money. I don't know about $100mn, but $50mn, yes.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Zone91

The 52 Topps Mantle is like Detective comics # 27 the 1st appearance of Batman and the Babe Ruth is like Action comics # 1 the 1st appearance of Superman people will never forget those like they will never forget these 2 baseball players.

There is NO way Barry Bonds with 762 homers will EVER be collected like Ruth or Mantle same goes for Hank Aaron....much less people talk about Aaron than Mantle even if Aaron was a much better player...that is why true legends will always be popular and collected.

Post # 5

??? How is the second card of Mantle the same as the first issue of Superman or Batman?

I don't know if Mantle prices will drop as people who remember him die off, but he's certainly no Babe Ruth, Gehrig or DiMaggio.

A lot of young guys forget that in the '80s baseball cards became fairly worthless compared to what they had been. Same thing happened to comic books in the '70s. So what if Rose was the hit leader and Bonds was the HR leader - neither has a card from the '50s or earlier.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Runscott

??? How is the second card of Mantle the same as the first issue of Superman or Batman?

I don't know if Mantle prices will drop as people who remember him die off, but he's certainly no Babe Ruth, Gehrig or DiMaggio.

A lot of young guys forget that in the '80s baseball cards became fairly worthless compared to what they had been. Same thing happened to comic books in the '70s. So what if Rose was the hit leader and Bonds was the HR leader - neither has a card from the '50s or earlier.

I would certainly put Mantle at the same level as all four of those players from both a numbers standpoint and mystique standpoint (for lack of a better word). The fact that the 1952 Topps card is not his first card means nothing. In actuality it is his 5th or 6th card issued, but I would still consider it his rookie (but that would be a post-war discussion). I don't know anything about comics, but I'm sure whatever analogy Adrian made has some sort of baring.

The 1952 Topps Mantle card will never go down in value relative to the hobby, same as the BN Ruth and t206 Wagner.

I would personally consider the BN Ruth to be the most valuable card in the world right now. I would consider the PSA 8 Wagner to be the most valuable single card in the world and I would certainly consider the PSA 10 Mantles to be up there as well.. $1-1.5 million if I had to guess.

The 1952 Topps Mantle has much more value past the fan appeal. It is arguably the most iconic image in the hobby (certainly the most iconic post war image). Mantle will always have that draw to collectors, not just because his numbers or legendary power or his accolades, but because he is one of the most popular players to have played the game. He's not just going to go away.

Jason

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

but I'm sure whatever analogy Adrian made has some sort of baring.

OK

[Zone91]

Runscott

I just mean that even do Batman is not # 1 and Superman is that does not mean people will ever forget about Batman (By the way in the last few years Batman is becoming more popular than Superman it is a back and forth thing in the last few years). Or you can say Mantle is like the most important silver comic with Spider-Man's 1st appearance in Amazing Fantasy # 15 in the very early 60's if you prefer....Spider-man is and will be popular for a long long long time to come. You can then use Detective # 27 for the T206 Wagner and Action # 1 for Ruth's 1914 Baltimore news cards....no matter all 3 characters will always be popular even if new comic book characters appeared after them...why because they are legendary in their own way.

To me the 2 most famous and popular baseball figures are Ruth and Mantle just the way it is. It will never be Barry Bonds and say Derek Jeter (most likely to beat the all time hit record in a couple of years) just won't happen....the 52 Topps image is known by almost the whole planet and that says a lot about it's future....this can't be said about MOST other collectibles...I know I have collected comics and coins for years. Everyone I know in Canada knows what the 52 Topps Mantle looks like (same thing with action comics # 1 and detective comics # 27 and Amazing Fantasy # 15) and also know it's importance in the hobby....and we are not even a baseball nation like you guys in the U.S.

Yes Thor, the X-Men and the Fantastic Four have their place as well but not like the Batman, Superman and Spider-Man!!!

Like the Mona Lisa painting once a image becomes the iconic image of a certain hobby USUALLY it stays that way.

On another note I am not collecting for money so the future potential does not bother me what does is that Mantle stays a part of baseball history and that he his remembered as the legend he was and still his....I believe without the famous image of the 52 Topps (rookie card or not) card he would be much less appreciated in the hobby today rarely does a SINGLE card have such a impact like that one does...it's power to draw people in when seen the image is incredible....the same can be said about the T206 Wagner!!!

Post # 12

[Piratedogcardshows]

Cool to see an Amazing Fantasy reference here.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Like the Mona Lisa painting
Post # 12

I've seen the Mona Lisa, and a '52 Topps Mantle is nothing like the Mona Lisa. In any way whatsoever. Compare the Mantle to comic books all you want, I can understand the analogy there. But the Mona Lisa? Nah.

[MattyC]

I could see the Just So Cy Young hammering for an all time card record.

While it's not a card everyone would want, that type of broad demand isn't necessarily required to reach a record high price. A card like that would appeal to the type of collector who could make thermospheric bids. If I have my facts straight, it is the only one known and the earliest card of a titanic name in the sport-- not even a relatively unknown or obscure-to-today's-masses HOFer. I could see intense competition erupt over that card at auction.

[Zone91]

Alex Rodriguez has better #'s than Mantle and will most likely be the new homerun king in a couple of years and have over 3000 hits...but truly who really cares about his cards....you will never see people collect these cards like they collect iconic and legendary players just will not happen.

Pete Rose is still the # 1 hit leader and his rookie goes for only a couple hundred dollars in PSA 5....why simple he is not Mantle or Ruth or some other player like Cobb or Wagner or Shoeless Joe Jackson. No one will become the new poster face of modern day baseball except for Mantle....not Hank Aaron not Willie Mays no one.

Post # 6

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Pete Rose is still the # 1 hit leader and his rookie goes for only a couple hundred dollars in PSA 5....

Citing this example is somewhat specious. It is very tough to compare different cards' values in the same grade across different eras. It is also very hard to compare players' statures based on card values. A low pop common from the 60s or 70s might command $3000+ in PSA 9; that doesn't mean that common player is better than Mike Schmidt.

Due to time and collectors preservation habits, many more 1963 Rose rookie cards are laying around than there are 1952 Mantles...

There are currently 1128 Mantles graded by PSA, with 227 grading at and north of PSA 5.

In contrast, there are 2859 Rose RCs graded by PSA, with nearly 2000 examples at or north of PSA 5.

So condition now enters the conversation as a determinant of value and it becomes apples to oranges. In PSA 8 or 9, the Rose RC is not a cheap card, and its price in that range might sound more commensurate with it being the RC of the all time hits leader.

That said, I think Mantle's iconic status within the card collecting hobby will stand the test of time, as will Ruth's. Even though Mantle has many cards in the hobby, eye-appealing examples of his earliest issues will, in my opinion, never plunge in value, nor will his rare issues like say the Dice Game. But again this is all talk and only time will tell.

I think names like Ruth, Cobb, Aaron, Williams, and DiMaggio, will endure well in terms of their card values-- but by card values I specifically mean the values of their most desired, popular cards. I can see a later issue Ted Williams dipping over time but not nearly as much so for a card like the 1954 Wilson Franks. Similarly I can see a 1968 Mantle in PSA 8 dipping long term, but not nearly as much if at all for a nicely centered example of his RC or the 52T.

[brian1961]

Ty Cobb - lots of wonderful cards, with lots of scarcities

Babe Ruth - few cards, period. But then we have this card, technically a pre-rookie, with great eye appeal and rarity, that does not transact very often. It has a lot going for it.

Mickey Mantle - many, many cards. Many, many scarcities. Many, many condition rarities. Identifying the profile of what issues have scarcity, rarity, condition rarity, fabulous eye appeal, and media coverage would make prudent research for a collector-investor. Media coverage can change, good or bad, depending on a lot of things. Think about it for a moment, in regards to Mantle--the 1952 Topps is the Mantle card written about 90 per cent of the time. Perhaps more than that. Why aren't some of the other Mantle cards profiled and spotlighted? I honestly think it is because the hobby writers had either one-track minds, were too shallow, stupid, or lazy to put forth the effort to research other Mantle gems. But really, I have been involved with journalism, there are deadlines, and the luxury of time is rare. Then again, if you have no one willing to be interviewed, what Mantle are you going to turn to? '52 Topps. An interesting observation I have noticed, when I was a kid, people asked, do you have a card of Babe Ruth? Today however, people ask, do you have a card of Mickey Mantle?

Honus Wagner - Other than his T-206, which has been a hobby legend since I suppose Jefferson Burdick placed a much higher value upon it in the original AMERICAN CARD CATALOG, there are lots of cards, cabinets, and discs. In the case of the PSA 8 Wagner, its aura became discolored due to Bill Mastro's admission it was hand-cut from a strip. But most of us figured this was the case years ago. Personally, I agree with the few who countered with, simply re-slab as a PSA 8 HAND-CUT. An exception should be made for the Gretzky-McNall Wagner, that is so far and away above the rest condition-wise. For this card, yes. However, the high-grade Wagner's effect upon his other cards has been interesting. Their value arched up because of the T-206. Then again, I am not a pre-war guy, and I'm certain they place him, rightly so, among the top players of that era.

Too many people still equate statistics with who should also then be the number one in most valuable collectibles. Again, lots of factors---where they played, impact on the game or who got to play, and performed stupendously, before National TV. I remember well in 1971. Still the masses did not seem to grasp how special Roberto Clemente was. The '71 Series changed that.

Jackie Robinson's numbers are not cited really. But anyone with an ounce of BB history and social history might understand why his 1950 uniform recently sold for $400,000. Others with much higher numbers sold way way below that.

Many of the cards discussed here are all great. Time will tell. If anyone has conversed with a collector having a 7-figure annual budget about what motivates them, please share. That would be interesting. If you cannot name a name, fine. But please sing it out. I seriously doubt it is all that mysterious. That coffee table book by Steven Wang was insightful. It is typical of the wealthy--they want things that are elegant, stand out, and are not easily obtained. With regard to the card hobby, they have often been driven to the big names, and their beautiful scarce cards, or cards in extraordinary condition. The generated threads along the lines of "if you could have ...? all pretty much bare out what the affluent desire--we all know the difference that allows one to pursue the dream cards and those who can only dream about them. Ownership of such expensive cardboard carries its own problems, pitfalls, and responsibilities.

Back to the actual subject. OK-so the Baltimore News Babe Ruth garnered a higher value. This hobby ought to have place for at least a dozen, or seven perhaps, great cards at the highest level. Wagner has gotten SO MUCH press through the years of the adult hobby's growth from the 1970s-on. I believe the general hobby did not even know of the Baltimore News Babe Ruth's existence until the mid-to-late-80s. Looking at the card, I can well appreciate why it took off price-wise. Barry Sloate brought up a vital point---Wagners are offered 3-4 times a year, whereas the Baltimore News Babe was coming along once a year at REA, then stopped. Now, perhaps once every 2-3 years. Someone else pointed out the vast difference in the population between the two--with anywhere from 4-7 of the T-206 Honus for each one of Babe. The exclusivity for each one is well-established. But, the fact remains the Baltimore News Babe Ruth is far and away rarer. Nothing new there. Collectors do not collect Baltimore News. We all know that most of the pre-war guys collect T-206. The difference?

Most of the guys collecting T-206 cannot afford the Wagner. The wealthy go for the jugular; they'll get the very best for its importance, value, exclusivity, and their own personal satisfaction. Most all of us would want a great card of the Babe. Maybe I am greatly mistaken, but there are relatively few great Ruths to choose from. For instance, how about a great card from '20, '21, or his legendary '27 season? There are some--the Headin' Home cards, and a few exhibits. The answer is best epitomized by an exchange by Moe and Curly in one of their many classic comedies, "Three Little Pirates":

Moe: "You gotta something else?"

Curly: "NAHHHTING!"

Moe: "Nahting?"

Curly: "Youx." (pronounced "YOKES", WHICH TRANSLATES TO "YES")

Moe: "Ooh Boy."

It's too bad. But the Goudeys are great cards, and there are some others. The Baltimore News Babe Ruth, a regional issue, fills the bill on so many fronts---fantastic appearance, scarcity, rarity, terrific story. It bares all the ingredients for a card to rival and sometimes beat Honus in value. The opportunities are few on this one. The fight was on. "Ze Blood Ran In Ze Streets."

'Nuf said.

Gotta go. -Brian Powell

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Adrian...I have to disagree...as more and more people die...who may have seen mantle play...who have this form of disposable income...the demand for his cards will go down. People like you...who at your age idolize mantle...are a small minority.

I completely agree Peter,

I think you are already seeing this effect with Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio. They are still very popular, but not the way that they were 20 years ago. Mantle was an incredibly gifted player who had the misfortune to suffer major injuries early in his career, so his numbers don't stack up with the all time greats and when the folks that saw him play are no longer around to tell the stories, his popularity will decline, even if only slightly. There's also a much greater likelihood of more Mantle rookies showing up as quite a few of the kids that collected cards at the time are still alive and I'd imagine that more cards will be showing up in estates over the next 10-20 years. The likelihood of additional pre-WWI cards being discovered is much less as you are looking at items being passed through multiple generations.

[Zone91]

wolf441

Mantle is to much of a legend for this to happen....ask almost any kid today who Cobb is or Wagner and they will look at you with a stupid face....Ruth's numbers have been beaten by players like Aaron and Bonds but who pays a fortune for a Aaron or Bonds card very few people do why simple they are NOT true legends that transcend threw history like Ruth and Mantle.

Ask almost any kid from New York who Mantle is they will know right away...Ruth's 714 homeruns has already been beat and will be beat again and again in the future but who cares Ruth is Ruth and that goes for Mantle as well.

Plus the 52 Topps set is Iconic as well as been the 1st Topps set ever so Mantle will do just fine down the road!!! People mostly collect T206, 33 Goudey and 52 Topps that is just the way it is....almost no one cares about sets from the 1980's and later...this will not change people want to collect insert cards and guess what when they find a Ruth or a Mantle they yell with joy.

Name me just one baseball player since Mantle's playing days came to a end who people care more about....the answer is NONE!!! A lot of people have over 500 homeruns but 95%-99% people forget about and could care less about but not Mantle and Ruth.

Derek Jeter will beat Cobb as far as hits go some time in the next couple of years...again who really cares about Jeter compared to Cobb!!!

Post # 8

[brob28]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Adrian...I have to disagree...as more and more people die...who may have seen mantle play...who have this form of disposable income...the demand for his cards will go down. People like you...who at your age idolize mantle...are a small minority.

I have thought this for a long time Peter. I never saw Mantle play, certainly appreciate his talent and contributions to the game but still can't figure out the excessive (IMO) premium on most of his cards. One other factor to this is that there are far more 1952 Topps Mantles to be had than T206 Wagner's or BN Ruths.