Did Babe Ruth dominate baseball at the same level Wayne Gretzky did hockey?

[rdwyer]

Wayne Gretzky played when the goalies had thin leg pads. That's why he scored so much.

[z28jd]

I think the most important question you must first answer is, who were the Yankees versions of Dave Semenko and Marty McSorely that gave Ruth all the room to do what he did? Without knowing that first, I can't properly answer the first question

[MVSNYC]

Zone- Babe dominated more than Gretzky ever did, your question should be reversed...try to wrap your head around the fact that some years, Babe hit more HR's than other TEAMS did. check out his slugging percentage and the list goes on. not even a comparison.

You need a new voting selection above: Yes, not even close.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Zone- Babe dominated more than Gretzky ever did, your question should be reversed...try to wrap your head around the fact that some years, Babe hit more HR's than other TEAMS did. check out his slugging percentage and the list goes on. not even a comparison.

You need a new voting selection above: Yes, not even close.

+1. Gretzky would need to have scored more points or have more goals than entire teams to come close to Ruth.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Zone- Babe dominated more than Gretzky ever did, your question should be reversed...try to wrap your head around the fact that some years, Babe hit more HR's than other TEAMS did. check out his slugging percentage and the list goes on. not even a comparison.

You need a new voting selection above: Yes, not even close.

+1....

[AMBST95]

Mario was a better player than Gretzky and was a contemporary. He was more productive when on the ice and did not have the caliber of teammates that Gretzky had. 2.005 points per game over 17 seasons. Wayne Gretzky was a great player but he didn't dominate the sport in his era the way that Ruth did his. This really isn't even a debate.

[jp1216]

I love this debate. I'm a Gretzky fan - but he did have Messier and Kurri nearly from day one. Different times, different sports, but the debate is fun. Gretzky did influence his game, but I agree that Ruth transformed his more.

[Bpm0014]

I'm not a hockey fan in the least bit, and I may be the biggest baseball fan in the world, but I'm going to give maybe the most crazy stat in sports ever...

Wayne Gretzky is the career goals leader. If you take away every single one of his goals, he's STILL the NHL's all time leading scorer. I didn't believe it, lost a bet, and had to find out the hard way. But look it up.

[Zone91]

I am not talking about influence on the game I am only talking stats wise!!!

Wayne to me is FAR and beyond the athlete that no one else even comes close to in hockey...almost a 1000 points ahead of anyone else. That is like having 5200 hits in baseball...way more than Pete Rose had.

For me Babe would have had to have well over 1000 home runs and 5000 hits to be even close to Wayne's statistic dominance.

Post # 6

[Zone91]

Look at this very very closely:

Link:

http://statshockey.homestead.com/alltimepoints.html

Post # 7

[nsaddict]

Your polls are getting stranger? What's next, which HOF'er chewed the most tobacco during doubleheaders? However, being a hockey fan, Gretzky's career stats are incredible. But I always felt he was overrated as a player. His teammates "protected" him that aided his stats greatly. If he had played in the 50's, he would have NEVER had the same success as he would have been knocked around game after game. In my opinion (although a shorter career due to injuries), Bobby Orr was THE most dominant player of all time. He excelled on defense and more so on offense and was a brawler. Sort of like Ruth ,multi talented, pitcher/hitter. As a side note, his rookie cards are WAY overpriced as millions and millions were produced.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

Your polls are getting stranger? What's next, which HOF'er chewed the most tobacco during doubleheaders?

I believe that would be Lenny Dykstra.

[Zone91]

billyb

Actually he played agaisnt some of the best players in the world:

Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, Paul Coffey, Marc Messier (when they no longer played together), Patrick Roy, Ron Francis, Joe Sakic, Ray Bourque, Brett Hull, Luc Robitaille, Martin Brodeur, Bryan Trottier, Adam Oates and many many others!!!

Post # 10

[Sean]

Keep in mind also how important Ruth was to baseball. The White Sox had just thrown the World Series in 1919, and the details of their betrayal were slowly coming to light in 1920. This was potentially a disaster for baseball. It was at this time that Ruth began to really dominate the game. 54 home runs in 1920, 59 in 1921.
Ruth's unprecedented power captured the public's imagination at just the right time, distracting people from what was playing out in a Grand Jury in Chicago. It's not as if Ruth planned it that way of course, but even by coincidence he did save baseball from what could have been a public reletions disaster and redefined how the game would be played forever after.
I know Gretzky was the best ever when he came along, but I don't think he changed the way the game would be played the way the Babe did.

[Zone91]

Food for though NO one will EVER beat Wayne's stats ever in hockey...someone would need to have 300 points (No one but him has ever had a 200 point season) for almost 10 straight years or 150 points for almost 20 years. No one even gets 150 in their prime anymore let alone 300 points in a single season.

Babe's records will be broken for the most part some time down the road...again NO one will EVER break Wayne's stats!!!

Post # 8

[Sean]

And Ruth began his career as a pitcher for 5 years. Gretzky never played goalie in the NHL.

[Zone91]

Sean

Hahahaha I love the Babe but I am honest with myself Wayne's records are NOT going to EVER be beat!!!

Post # 9

[TUM301]

2 words, Babe Ruth. The other 2 words, Bobby Orr !!

[Sean]

In Gretzky's defense, I don't believe the Babe ever owned a T206 Wagner.

[billyb]

Gretzke scored most of goals when the league was watered down. There were expansions, minor league goal tenders were in the net, many defensemen were also on minor league caliber.
It was common to have 8 to 5, or 10 to 7 cames. If he played during the original six days, he would have been good, but he would not look so pretty today.
When the european invasion happened in the NHL, then the defenses and goaltending started to tighten up. You can't go by Gretzke stats, it was a time of some very weak teams. It was so bad, it wasn't even fun to watch.

[dabigyankeeman]

The fact that Ruth was a great pitcher before becoming a position player would make Gretzky have to be a great goalie for a few years before moving to another position.

Also, did Wayne ever score more goals than an entire TEAM???

[rhettyeakley]

Apples to Oranges.

In hockey Bobby Orr was great, but if we are talking about goalies most goalies in the 1960-early 70's were still employing an upright style of playing, it wasn't until later that the butterfly style (which is far more effective) was Universally employed. While it is true Gretzky played when they had slightly smaller pads than they do today it was far more similar to today's style of play than what Howe, Hull and even Bobby Orr played with. Also Bobby had health problems that limited his career. The only other hockey player that was like Gretzky was Lemieux, however his health problems are well chronicled. My vote for best hockey player ever is Gretzky with little debate.

As far as Gretzky vs Babe Ruth... People need to stop comparing goals in hockey to home runs. That comparison makes no sense. A home run, while great for your team is not the only way to score. In reality in baseball the home run is more of a novelty than it is the end all and be all of what a batter is looking to do, which is to score runs. While it is certainly the easiest way to throw a number on the scoreboard as it only requires one swing, if home runs we're all that counted we would view players like Adam Dunn as being better than some other players like Jeter that are obviously all-around better ballplayers. Did Babe Ruth have more RBI's than an entire team? Did he score more runs than an entire team? The answer is no and IMO while it is obviously problematic to compare hockey to baseball I think people are making odd comparisons.

All that being said I think Ruth in baseball is more significant than Gretzky in hockey.

[glchen]

The other thing to note is that Gretzky, from Adrian's stats, has nearly a thousand more points than the next one on the list. However, in terms of goals, the difference isn't nearly as great with "just" a ~90 goal advantage over Howe. The difference in points is from his assists which is ~700 more than the next highest in assists and nearly 900 more than the next highest in points. In hockey, multiple players can be counted as assisted on a single goal. Therefore, the comparison to baseball is very tough. It would be similar to saying that if you hit a single to advance the baserunner, who eventually scored, then you deserve an RBI for that.

[Sean1125]

I would say Michael Jordan dominated basketball at beyond the level any one has ever dominated before... Sadly he was before my time but I've watched him play and jeez... Just jeez.

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by jp1216

I love this debate. I'm a Gretzky fan - but he did have Messier and Kurri nearly from day one.

And just as importantly, he had Semenko & McSorley!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by AMBST95

Mario was a better player than Gretzky and was a contemporary. He was more productive when on the ice and did not have the caliber of teammates that Gretzky had. 2.005 points per game over 17 seasons. Wayne Gretzky was a great player but he didn't dominate the sport in his era the way that Ruth did his. This really isn't even a debate.

Finally, somebody who agrees with me regarding Mario! I'm a huge Gretzky fan - meeting him is my all-time sports thrill - but Mario was better.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by AMBST95

Mario was a better player than Gretzky and was a contemporary. He was more productive when on the ice and did not have the caliber of teammates that Gretzky had. 2.005 points per game over 17 seasons. Wayne Gretzky was a great player but he didn't dominate the sport in his era the way that Ruth did his. This really isn't even a debate.

Actually Mario is second to Gretzky in Pts per game avg over their careers. 1.921 to 1.883 with those two being significantly ahead of Mike Bossy in 3rd place.

[dabigyankeeman]

I think its stupid in hockey that in overall player scoring an assist counts the same as a goal.

Yes, I know how important an assist can be, but its still NOT the goal. I would give a point for a goal and half a point for an assist.

[nsaddict]

Originally Posted by dabigyankeeman

I think its stupid in hockey that in overall player scoring an assist counts the same as a goal.

Yes, I know how important an assist can be, but its still NOT the goal. I would give a point for a goal and half a point for an assist.

Gotta disagree completely, many times the assist should be worth more than the goal. Frequently the goal is the easy part. Hanging around the net and waiting while your teammates are busting their butts getting you the puck, enter Phil Esposito , a great example. His teammates would have excelled without him but without them he never would have had those stats. Statistics can be be VERY deceiving. I apologize since this is a vintage baseball board. See what you started Zone

[dabigyankeeman]

And in baseball you cant get an RBI without a runner getting on base in front of you and managing to score when you get a hit. Sure, the guy gets a run, but we dont combine runs and RBI's together to form a stat to see who the scoring champion of baseball is.

[glenv]

People have now hit more HRs than Ruth both in a season and career. And people were hitting HRs before Ruth, he didn’t really change that game all that much. However, there is no doubt that he was great and dominate.

However, I’m surprised by the lack of credit given to Gretzky. He didn’t just play, he innovated. He would watch game after game and map out where the puck went, then he went to those areas. He had the vision set up shop behind the opponent’s net or know where to skate to after a face-off. He also redefined how teams killed penalties. Before Gretzky, coaches would put out defensive players to kill time. He would attack and turn the penalty kill into an offensive opportunity. Also, his move to the LA Kings gave hockey a national popularity that it never had before.

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by rdwyer

Wayne Gretzky played when the goalies had thin leg pads. That's why he scored so much.

It was a more offensive era in hockey, but even still nobody was at his level.