JSA, PSA: Fake Sonny Listons piling up?

[JimStinson]

According to George Foreman in an interview he had this to say about Sonny Liston's signing

"I saw him sign autographs evidently he'd met a priest somewhere down the line who'd shown him how to DRAW his autograph , we'd both sign them and I'd be done and he was still signing, he always signed with his right hand"

Note the word DRAW, A genuine Liston signature is not signed it is drawn.

The following was explained to me personally by one of Liston's handlers

"Sonny could and did sign , But he would hover over the autograph and labor with it , it was uncomfortable to watch and took him a long time to sign his name he was unable to sign anything other than his name and once in awhile someone would ask that something be signed TO them and Sonny would ignore them or on rare occasions would have them PRINT what they wanted him to write and he would just write it in block letters"

For More information on Sonny Liston, I have attached a story I wrote in 1995. Since it was fairly recent maybe the information in the story has not made the rounds yet. Also did a detailed analysis in 1992 in USA TODAY which I think at the time had the largest circulation of any newspaper in the World.
Note in the story pictured here the signature on the first page is his wife Geraldine who insisted her entire life that she never signed for her late husband which simply is not true. The other Liston signatures in the article are in person examples. I hope everyone finds this helpful.
________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com
web site
stinsonsports.com

[toybulldog]

Here's the one in question surrounded by some real ones. He seemed to get a bit more fluent toward the late 60's. JSA, how did your intuitive sense determine this to be real? Can your experts who are extremely familiar with the different variations and evolution of Sonny Liston's autograph come on here and show us where this one fits in? And how?

[travrosty]

I guess jsa requires 7 people to look at it, of which 5 must score it positive.

does it matter if 50 people looked at it over there, if 50 people don't know liston's autograph?

This is unbelievable and up until this time I thought that maybe they are just very poor at boxing signatures, now I am beginning to think there is something else afoot when stuff like this continues to happen over and over and over again.

What's wrong with you, JSA?

[travrosty]

Liston autograph 101:

If you see where the capital L in Liston starts in relationship the the y in Sonny, you will see it very consistent over almost every Liston autograph you ever see.

Does the JSA boner autograph has this spatial relationship? NO

strike 1

red flag

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Note the word DRAW, A genuine Liston signature is not signed it is drawn.

That would seem to be all we need, except for all the 'drawn' autographs of Gehrig, Ruth, etc., that forum members think are signed.

Also, thanks Travis, for pointing this out. The great thing about not knowing much (me) is that there's always something to learn.

[travrosty]

no problem, the beginning of the L is much more closer to the top of the capital S than it is to the y, which is bad.

Another thing to look for is the baseline of each of the first and last names. in real Liston signatures, the baseline will usually go up from left to right in the first name Sonny, and then start lower again for the last name, and go up again at a slant.

If you draw a straight line at the base of the letters in Sonny, and extend that line until it hits the word Liston, it will usually hit the word Liston in the backside of the capital L from anywhere from about 50% up to 100% up to the top of the capital L.

In this fake, you can see the baseline of the word Sonny hits the word Liston very low, about 15% of the way up. (just eyeballing it). the baseline almost extends unimpeded all the way through the word Liston. You can almost draw a straight line from the bottom of the word Sonny all the way through the bottom of the word Liston and it almost lines up. Very little difference in baseline, as opposed to usually a great difference in baseline in authentic examples.

note: these are rules of thumbs, there can always exist an odd one that breaks the rule somewhat, like the authentic example at the left of the collage, the baseline hits about 30% of the way up, but the rest of the autograph is what we would expect. One characteristic doesn't necessarily sink an autograph, but several do, this has more than several defects.

strike 2

red flag

[shelly]

The problem with the big boys is that they will never admit defeat. They authenticate items that they have no idea if they are authentic or not. It is all about cash.
Yes, you can make a mistake but when you have no idea what you are doing that is not a mistake that is out and out stealing.

[travrosty]

They haven't a clue, but their promtional material says they meticulously go through each autograph and their years of experience of knowing all the subtle differences in the evolution of a particular athlete's signature allow them to figure out the genuine article from the forgery.

that's all a bunch of baloney. 100% baloney from word one onward.

it's all fake, the company doesnt know these autographs, they never will because they never own up to them. They have no experts in these areas.

[travrosty]

liston autograph 101

the i and s and the o and the n in Liston is glossed over, just little bumps, very low profile with no details, its so low profile it almost doesnt exist. Same with the n-n in Sonny. This does not jive with real liston examples.

Another thing odd about this signature is the very high t in Liston. Sometimes the t gets tall, almost as tall as the capital L but in this example you can see it is taller than the capital L in Liston.

Strike 3, you are out.

red flag - go back to boxing autograph authentication school