What PSA/DNA and Heritage auctions are doing to our beloved boxing hobby!

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Coming on the heels of psa insisting a wife signed Bob Fitzsimmons autographs is real and refusing to take it down on their psaautographfacts page, we find this beauty being offered up on Heritage of Marlin (sic) Julian. (Notice they call him Marlin Julian in the title, instead of Martin Julian, presumably because Martin crosses his t very high or not on the stem of the T itself, so it doesn't look like it is crossed, and looks like an L, not because they would actually know who Julian is at all.)

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...32&lotNo=44124

Now not only do they misspell Martin Julian's namein the title, calling him Marlin, they fail to issue their precious Precertification on Martin's autograph due to inconclusive-lack of exemplars? WHAT?

In the description, they finally call him Martin Julian, but say that PSA can't rule on the signature because they don't have exemplars of Julian's autograph.

What are they doing? What is going on here? Are they even trying? Does Heritage have anybody over there that knows boxing one whit?

There are several Martin Julian exemples around, below are two.

But if PSA really wanted to study Martin Julian's handwriting, they should look at the Martin Julian Handwriting they have already given a cert to. They should look at the Bob Fitzsimmons autograph they certed as genuine that was actually signed by Martin Julian himself.

So they call a Bob Fitzsimmons manager signed autograph a genuine Fitzsimmons example, but then can't certify a manager signed autograph of himself? What the heck Joe Orlando, Steve Grad? And what is Heritage doing over there. Chris Ivy, are you paying attention?

Here is a page that details the entire Martin Julian signed Fitzsimmons autograph that PSA certed as a genuine Fitzsimmons. There is your Julian handwriting right there for you in black and white, PSA!!!

Why do we put up with it? Heritage, please get a boxing expert in there, pronto, PSA, please get a boxing expert on board your company.

http://www.fighttoys.com/lawsuitPSAnonauthenticfitz.htm

Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, all of this is to say that you are pissed at PSA for NOT certifying the Martin Julian autograph?

[thenavarro]

Props to PSA for not certifying an autograph where they felt they didn't have reliable exemplars. Thumbs up!

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by thenavarro

Props to PSA for not certifying an autograph where they felt they didn't have reliable exemplars. Thumbs up!

Only you would say that. It's like refusing to certify Jack Dempsey due to lack of reliable exemplars. It's stupid.

Reliable exemplars of Julian are well documented and this only shows PSA isn't even in the infancy of knowing boxing autographs if they don't have Martin Julian exemplars on hand, let alone tell just by looking that it's good, which is all I had to do. But Grad must have scratched his head for an hour, or what? I don't know, let's ask him.

Would you go to psa, the WORLD'S boxing experts when they don't have any Julian exemplars? Julian exemplars not hard to come by if they took a minute to look for some. Julian exemplars should be in their database to start, but if not, one phone call to somebody should have gotten them several but they don't know what to do. It's only boxing to them.

Tom Sayers they certed, with no exemplars!

Martin Julian - they can't when several exemplars are availabel. People actually pay this company money. Can someobody tell me why Heritage even bothers when this is the result?

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Only you would say that.

?

I feel relatively confident that the large majority of rational autograph collectors (except for the submitter and whomever sold to the submitter) would strongly prefer that they don't certify autographs they are not sure about.

You get all bent because they certed a Sayers supposedly with no exemplars (or at least none that they will share with you), but then out of the other side of your mouth you get bent with them for declining to opine on a different autograph.

Things that make you go hhmmm

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by thenavarro

I feel relatively confident that the large majority of rational autograph collectors (except for the submitter and whomever sold to the submitter) would strongly prefer that they don't certify autographs they are not sure about.

You get all bent because they certed a Sayers supposedly with no exemplars (or at least none that they will share with you), but then out of the other side of your mouth you get bent with them for declining to opine on a different autograph.

Things that make you go hhmmm

Mr. Navarro, they pulled the Tom Sayers cert admitting they didn't have exemplars, but nice try. There is zero chance that PSA has exemplars that the boxing autograph community doesn't have after 50 years of sharing exemplars between dedicated and experienced hobbyists.

The question you have to ask yourself is why aren't they sure about this Julian autograph? They claim to be WORLDS experts! I didn't have to pull up any exemplars of Julian for me to know it is good because I had seen Julian's autograph before and this one is textbook. Steve Grad, the world boxing expert must not have had the same experience in boxing autographs. That is what makes me go hmmmm- why people think they are the worlds experts and know boxing but continuously boot the ball on it.

PSA claims no exemplars. There are easily exemplars of Julian around for anyone who wants to spend a modicum of time looking for them, which they must not.

It's THEIR JOB to know these autographs, and claiming no exemplars when there are easily exemplars to be had, is not doing their job in my book. Who looked at these autographs for Heritage? Did they even know who Martin Julian was?

Go ahead and submit a Jack Dempsey to an auction house and when PSA claims they can't opine due to a lack of exemplars, then go ahead and give them the benefit of the doubt and tell them you are glad they are honest and won't give their opinion on an autograph they aren't sure about because they can't find any Jack Dempsey autographs to compare them to.

It doesn't work. We know you are a PSA supporter so no matter how bad they screw up you will love them. Well, good for you.

And where is your appreciation for PSA doing the right thing and admitting no exemplars when they certed a Joe Choynski as real and now claim no exemplars?????? Can you answer that, Mr. Navarro? They get away with it because the Mr. Navarro's of the world let them get away with it and always have numerous excuses on hand why they shouldn't DO THEIR JOB they claim they are the world's experts at? If they are the world's experts, why is it they aren't as good as I am at boxing autographs? Does that make me the solar system expert?

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

And where is your appreciation for PSA doing the right thing and admitting no exemplars when they certed a Joe Choynski as real and now claim no exemplars??????

Can you answer that, Mr. Navarro?

Props for not certing Choynski anymore if they don't have exemplars.

Yes, I can answer that, I just did above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Perhaps you are making a difference Travis (not Mr. Roste) ?

[johnmh71]

Originally Posted by thenavarro

I feel relatively confident that the large majority of rational autograph collectors (except for the submitter and whomever sold to the submitter) would strongly prefer that they don't certify autographs they are not sure about.

You get all bent because they certed a Sayers supposedly with no exemplars (or at least none that they will share with you), but then out of the other side of your mouth you get bent with them for declining to opine on a different autograph.

Things that make you go hhmmm

+1. He's trying to make Nash proud of him.

[travrosty]

Mike, this is not a tough boxing autograph to authenticate. Their job is to know it like their job is to know Bob Feller. Claiming no exemplars is ridiculous. If they claimed no Bob Feller exemplars would you defend them? We know better. You know better. They can take it on the chin, they did it to themselves.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by thenavarro

Props to PSA for not certifying an autograph where they felt they didn't have reliable exemplars. Thumbs up!

But Mr. Navarro, they did have an exemplar of Julian's handwriting, the bob fitzsimmons autograph signed by Julian that they certified as a real Fitzsimmons autograph. So they had an exemplar all along!

If they are citing lack of exemplars, why couldn't they do that with the Tom Sayers that they got caught certing?

Please answer.

Why did they pass on certifying a Joe Choynski autograph on two separate ocassions last year for the same auction house, again citing a lack of exemplars, when they had previously certed a Joe Choynski that went to another auction at an earlier date? They must have HAD Choynski exemplars, but then lost them? I don't get it? Did the Choynski exemplars burn up they no longer had them?

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7065&lotNo=82803

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7065&lotNo=81202

but then oops, here is a choynski they previously certed. with the same no exemplars, I must assume?

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/lot-8717.aspx

Am I the only one seeing a pattern here?



What is this revising history pretending they didn't previously cert autograph they now claim they don't have exemplars for?

They had already certed a Martin Julian, it just happened to be PSA claiming a Bob Fitzsimmons autograph that Julian ghost signed for Bob.

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Please answer.

I'm not omnipotent. I don't know why they changed course if in fact they used to cert autographs without exemplars.

Perhaps, they are learning from their past and are making an effort to change in the current and future.

I do know, that I would prefer they don't certify autographs that they either don't have exemplars of, or are no longer comfortable with their exemplar database for that signer.

That's what they are supposed to do. So props to them as I mentioned above.

(and please just call me Mike, that Mr. nonsense makes me feel old Although my hair has it's fair share of greys now, I'm probably around the same age range as you, if I had to guess I'd place you around 42 or so)

Mike

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by thenavarro

I'm not omnipotent. I don't know why they changed course if in fact they used to cert autographs without exemplars.

Perhaps, they are learning from their past and are making an effort to change in the current and future.

I do know, that I would prefer they don't certify autographs that they either don't have exemplars of, or are no longer comfortable with their exemplar database for that signer.

That's what they are supposed to do. So props to them as I mentioned above.

(and please just call me Mike, that Mr. nonsense makes me feel old Although my hair has it's fair share of greys now, I'm probably around the same age range as you, if I had to guess I'd place you around 42 or so)

Mike

Thanks Mike, they arent doing their job if they dont have Julian exemples. They are not suppose to NOT know who martin julian is and have no exemplars of him. They claim to be the best in the world? Are they? How many of these do we have to show? A million I guess because you will never come around.

If Grad looked at these can you really call him an expert. I just showed you Martin Julian exemplars, and if they didn't have those over there at PSA then are they doing their job. These exemplars are not under lock and key, they are on the internet!

http://www.psaautographfacts.com/Aut...ob-fitzsimmons

here is their exemplars for Bob Fitzsimmons that they show on autograph facts.

The first one is a wife signed Fitzsimmons that doesnt look like the others?

What's your defense for that one. They already know about it but refuse to take it down. Is that a company that is trying to do it's best to correct their mistakes?

[travrosty]

Mike, I have a serious question. If you could be so kind to answer.

What would I have to show you that would make you say "these people don't know what they are doing, because that is just ridiculous and over the line"

is there anything? because i dont think there is anything at this point.

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Mike, I have a serious question. If you could be so kind to answer.

What would I have to show you that would make you say "these people don't know what they are doing, because that is just ridiculous and over the line"

is there anything? because i dont think there is anything at this point.

Sure Travis, I'll answer in just a few minutes, give me time to type it out. I can't keep up with the back and forth due to my arthritic fingers. As soon as I post this, I'll begin to reply to the questions in this one.


Mike

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Mike, I have a serious question. If you could be so kind to answer
What would I have to show you that would make you say "these people don't know what they are doing, because that is just ridiculous and over the line"
is there anything? because i dont think there is anything at this point.

Let me answer that with the following. I fully realize and understand that the work product of PSA/DNA is not perfect, and in some areas, is severely lacking and irresponsible from time to time. They are NOT a perfect mousetrap, and they are not really designed to be better than any specific individual that has a passion and love and study of certain signatures IMO. They are there to provide a limited service IMO, not a total comprehensive expert analysis, and as long as the user realizes that, it's a good service.

The damand put on them timewise, in my opinion, does not allow for a full comprehensive examination of every item. (irregardless of what their marketing literature or verbage on websites or LOA's or LOR's might state) However, the flip side of that is, the fees that they charge clients, are NOT enough to expect a full comprehensive examination of every item. I, as a customer, realize that I get what I'm willing to pay for, and if I'm not willing to pay a price point that would support a full comprehensive review, then I should not expect perfection.

People want and expect a somewhat reasonable turnaround time, and that leads to assumptions being made sometime, and employees "authenticating" out of their realm at times, and downright carelessness and negligence at other times. Is that the ideal situation? Hell no, but for the limited prices we pay for their services and for the turnaround times we expect, it IS going to happen.

I liken it to myself at times, I'm pretty good at what I do for a living, but admittedly, there are moments in certain days, where I flat out drop the ball. That doesn't mean that I'm not good at what I do, that just means that I'm human like everyone else walking this planet.

I also know that I don't expect them to produce marketing literature saying "hey, we drop the ball sometimes", "we are occasionally careless", "we have certified preprints, secretarials, and autopens","we occasionally pass one without exemplars because it's part of a collection where the ones we do know appear to be real", anymore than I expect Budweiser to produce advertising saying "hey, our beer really doesn't taste great, it's actually kinda nasty, and guess what, it's not really less filling either, it will give you a beer gut". They are in business to sell their service, which they've done a helluva job promoting and marketing, and which is in my opinion, a DECENT service. Not an end all, be all. Sure, there WILL be instances to where their service or opinion flat out sucks, like in some of the instances you point out.

I've found the people (at least the ones that I know or do business with) that work and consult for them to be good, decent, honorable people in dealings that I've had with them personally, both with PSA, and outside of PSA. That's one of the reasons I support Collectors Universe, not because I love everything the company does, but most of the people I've known over the years that have come and gone from there, or are still there, have always treated me with respect and fairness when dealing with them, in all phases, before, during, and even after their stints with CU. I have run across an occasional individual with them that I don't particularly care for, but that is to be expected EVERYWHERE.

I don't know if that sufficiently addresses your questions, but my hands hurt and I'm getting tired of being on the PC for now.


Have a good night,

Mike

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Mike, I have a serious question. If you could be so kind to answer.

What would I have to show you that would make you say "these people don't know what they are doing, because that is just ridiculous and over the line"

is there anything? because i dont think there is anything at this point.

No , but I can say that with 100% certainty that IMHO, you are a boil on the ass of any forum.

WHO CARES ABOUT Joe Choscky and Julian Lennon. Never heard of them and most normal autograph collectors could care LESS. Except moron boxing collectors such as yourself, It's such a speck of the hobby IT DOESNT matter, The more you try to make it matter, the more collectors could car less due to your eyes sight problem and deductive reasoning skills. You can't see clearly when it comes to anything PSA or JSA and also Cant Understand Normal Thinking, so what's the point, except your head.

[toybulldog]

Why did they pass on certifying a Joe Choynski autograph on two separate ocassions last year for the same auction house, again citing a lack of exemplars, when they had previously certed a Joe Choynski that went to another auction at an earlier date? They must have HAD Choynski exemplars, but then lost them? I don't get it? Did the Choynski exemplars burn up they no longer had them?

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7065&lotNo=82803

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7065&lotNo=81202

but then oops, here is a choynski they previously certed. with the same no exemplars, I must assume?

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/lot-8717.aspx

Good catch, it seems your evidence based post shows PSA/DNA doesn't perform the service they claim they are performing here. Their statement from the PSA website is not accurate:


And their claim of an "autograph authentication process"?


So if there were no exemplars for the SCP Choynski how could there be an "autograph authentication process"? Where is the integrity in that?

Was this a gift authentication with absolutely no knowledge of the subject's autograph or handwriting?

[travrosty]

exactly, that is why there are these questions that need to be answered. where is joe o. or steve grad to answer them? they know, but they won't speak. What defense could they give anyway.

how could a joe choynski autograph be certed, and then later a choynski being passed over by a cliam of no exemplars. They must not have did what the coa said and compare autographs to exemplars they have encountered during their careers.


were they gifts with no exemplars to be found, or did they suddenly "find religion" and figure out they might need some exemplars to start certing these autographs. Certainly the sayers was certed, but did they have exemplars? Where is the Sayers exemplar? all the collectors combined sharing exemplars for decades cant come up with a sayers, but psa has 'em. Where. if they don't then why isn't it fraud to issue a cert for a sayers with no exemplars when they say they only issue certs by comparing autographs to exemplars?

[travrosty]

When they asked me to join as a consultant, and look at boxing autographs with them, they told me in a correspondence. "We need help with boxing"

If they need help with it, why are they currently doing it. I still don't see anyone on their list that is a boxing guy.

Does that sound like the WORLD'S experts to anybody? The whole world over there is nobody better at boxing autographs than them because they are the whole worlds experts at it?

[toybulldog]

Speaking of gifts, this one as atrocious as the exposed Rocky Marciano. An alleged autograph of heavyweight champion Jim Corbett. The photograph is merely labeled "Jim Corbett age 10" in another hand but has been auctioned off as a later signature by Corbett himself. In case you're finding it hard to decipher' "Jim" is at top left with "Corbett" underneath. "age" at top right with "10" below.



Would like to invite this PSA/DNA company to come on here and share just a few consistent exemplars that would help support the legitimacy of this pre-certified Jim Corbett autograph.

Does our evidence point to a legitimate Jim Corbett autograph or a bogus pre-certification to add false value to a non-authentic item?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, all of this is to say that you are pissed at PSA for NOT certifying the Martin Julian autograph?

yes because if they knew boxing they would instantly have julian exemplars.

They didn't do their job. Their job is to know Julian's autograph, which is well documented to those who spend time to actually know boxing autographs.