NOW LIVE: Negro League Baseball Collectibles Guide

cyseymour · #1 08-14-2013, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

I would first like to thank everyone who has purchased a copy of my guide. I hope that it proves to be the most useful reference tool of it's kind in the hobby.

I will now respond to comments made by a fellow Nert 54 board member, Ryan Christoff, whom everyone in the hobby knows to be, if not the foremost expert in the field of Negro League Baseball collectibles, certainly among the top two or three.

Less than two weeks ago, I had the opportunity to spend a good part of one day at Ryan's dealer table at the National in Chicago. Together, we did a quick review of my guide which had just been published two days earlier. While Ryan pointed out a number of things that would require updates to be made, I eagerly took notes of everything that Ryan mentioned.

First and foremost, there was a 1924 Cuban League postcard picturing Oscar Charleston which, upon further research, had been determined to be fake. Along those same lines, there was a group of 1948-49 Toleteros "Test" cards which were auctioned off a number of years ago and have also subsequently been determined to be fakes.

Beyond those two admittedly significant errors, Ryan pointed out a couple of Cuban team composites that I labeled as such which were part of Cuban League publications but that was not specified in my descriptions.

Also, Ryan pointed out a number of items in the card section which he indicated do not exist and should be removed. All of these items have been named in albums, as part of uncut sheets, etc. but no known examples have surfaced thus far in the hobby. In my opinion, these items are not mistakes but could simply have the added disclaimer "Unconfirmed" placed next to them.

Other than that, there was a misspelling of a Hispanic players' last name as well as differences of opinion on some values which is a completely subjective area. Thus, these would not qualify as errors.

We also discussed the idea of Ryan doing a much more comprehensive review of the guide once he returned back home so I agreed to forward a complimentary copy to him immediately. Due to the timing of late summer activities, we both agreed that it would be best to revisit things after the Labor Day holiday weekend.

In the interim, I started to go back to my electronic version of the guide and begin making some of the updates that Ryan had suggested while also giving some thought on how best to go about handling the fact that 100 copies have already been published. My thought was to get back together with Ryan after the summer and determine the full scope of not only his recommended changes but also numerous additional items that he would make available for future print runs.

Unfortunately, Ryan felt the need to give his input in this thread before we had a chance to discuss further. As everyone can imagine, I am quite hurt by Ryan's comments which call into question not only the credability of my guide but also my knowledge of Negro League Baseball collectibles in general.

In closing, although my guide might not be perfect, at least it is a good head start towards educating many in the hobby who are interested in Negro League Baseball collectibles but never had the opportunity to learn about them due to the lack of a comprehensive resource available on the market.

I haven't received my copy of the book yet, so I can't comment on its quality. But you wrote that you knew of these fakes from Ryan "less than two weeks ago" yet presumably you were selling the book after you already knew of the fakes. You go on to call the book "a good head start"... but I didn't really want a head start, I thought I was receiving a definitive resource.

I am not objecting to the fact that fakes were discovered - it happens. But I'm surprised that after they were discovered, you still went ahead with the decision to sell the book. I would honestly rather have a refund and purchase a corrected copy than buy a copy with known fakes that is soon to be revised. Can you offer a refund/return/exchange once my book arrives so that I can get a revised one instead?

Thanks,

Jamie

ElCabron · #2 08-14-2013, 11:36 AM

Phil,

I'm sorry if you were hurt by my comments. That was not my intent. I like you and am still willing to help if you'd like me to. My input wasn't personal, but I can see why it would be hard not to take it that way. You've put a lot of hard work into this project and it probably felt like I was saying it has no value. That's not what I'm saying at all. I think the idea of a guide like this is great. It's something that there is a clear desire for by many collectors. What I don't understand is why there was such a rush to publish it.

I don't claim to be the world's authority about any of this, but I don't think it's too outlandish for me to suggest that you probably should have sent me a proof copy or something to look over BEFORE publishing it. So many of these errors are easily fixed. I'm not talking about your price estimates, either, when I mention the errors. My #1 main issue, and the reason I posted in this thread, is the fact that you included fakes. Saying the 1951-52 Denia set is from 1950-51 is relatively minor. An easily fixable mistake. Listing a 1946-47 Almanaque Deportivo card of Ray Dandridge when it was never even produced is not a big deal. Including a white guy named George Brown who has no affiliation with the Negro Leagues whatsoever is bizarre and probably preventable by looking at his picture on the card, but still, not a big deal. No one is really harmed by these. There are many others like those, but they are somewhat harmless, although even one of them would drive me crazy if it was something I published myself. No, the inclusion of fakes is what I find potentially harmful to the hobby. I've always taken a pretty harsh stance about this, so it's not just now with you. And I want to clarify that I am in no way implying you had anything to do with fake cards. I know that you were only trying to be comprehensive and genuinely believed they were real. And also somehow honestly thought George Brown was a Negro Leaguer.

Legitimizing fake cards is a step in the wrong direction. If someone who bought your book pays $3,000 today for a fake Willard Brown card because they thought it was real after seeing it in your book, in my opinion YOU have some responsibility in that. Perhaps not legal responsibility, but you understand my point. If you're publishing a guide, people are probably going to assume you know more about the subject than they do and it's possible they will take your published work as truth, even when you have "guide" right in the title. Again, we're not talking about new information coming out after you published. That can and will happen and there is nothing you can do about that, other than update it for the next version of the guide you publish.

Everything I'm talking about was easily preventable. Even after you printed the first batch of books. I told you how important I felt it was to at least include some kind of note or something about the fakes if you were still going to send out copies of the book, but it doesn't seem like you did that. I wasn't trying to take a dig at you by posting on the board. I was trying to prevent fake cards from being considered real. With all the other errors, I was hoping you might consider not publishing this first batch of books, as I mentioned to you on the phone, and then putting out a much more comprehensive, much more accurate guide at some point in the future

Again, I'm still willing to help out in whatever way you need me to. I've been saving scans of Negro League items for over 15 years. I have a pretty large archive of images. In your memorabilia section, I have either owned at some point or currently own about half of those items. That means I have high resolution scans of them. I have images of MANY other items and lots of card issues you've probably never heard of. I'm happy to share any of those with you. I don't think you realize that a good portion of this stuff gets traded privately. Combing auction house catalogs only gives part of the picture. I know you feel like I was attacking you personally, Phil, but I wasn't. I was attacking your book. Maybe your book should surrender, hit the gym, and come back stronger than ever!

-Ryan

bcbgcbrcb · #3 08-14-2013, 01:27 PM

Ryan:

Since you don't know how I was planning to handle the situation, you should have asked me first before posting on a public forum but it's too late for that now.

While you continuosly mention your willingness to help in whatever capacity needed, you did not volunteer to assist in any way to help put the guide together when I first began the process and was seeking help from anyone and everyone on Net 54 who had some expertise in this field. I also asked several times for scans of cards on Net 54 that I was missing, many of which you indicate that you have (and I'm sure you do) but nothing was ever sent to me. You did offer to forward images via e-mail somewhere along the way but, for some reason, I never received anything. Since you were in no way obligated to help me, I just moved on with my work.

It is very easy to sit back now, after the fact, and the book has already been published and make critical comments. Obviously, your expertise far exceeds mine and I'm sure that you could have put something like this together with virtually no issues but never chose to do so. In summary, your expertise was not available when it meant putting something together to help the hobby but it is now available to find fault with the finished product.

Rest assured that I will take the necessary steps to ensure that my buyers are alerted to any major issues with the guide that are known to me. I will have to further assess things before making a decision on whether a revised edition will be produced at some point in the future.

ElCabron · #4 08-14-2013, 02:54 PM

Okay, well let me know if you change your mind. Just so you know, I didn't see your posts asking for help as I was rarely checking the board at that time. I'm not sure why you didn't just call me and ask me since we've known each other for years, but it's fine. Sorry if I was too busy trying to raise 4 kids in two different states while in the middle of a brutal custody battle to send you some scans. I'm not trying to critique your work after the fact any differently than I would have before it was published. Someone should have, Phil. That's all I'm saying. It would have saved a lot of headaches. Also, I didn't just randomly come on some public forum without talking to you first. I did talk to you. And I was under the impression that there would be something included with the books you sent that corrects, or at least points out some of the more egregious errors. When everyone started posting about how great the book is and no one mentioned it, I correctly assumed you didn't include anything.

In spite of your hurt feelings about what you perceive as bashing your book, I actually think it's still great and worth buying, even in its current error-filled state, just for the memorabilia side. It's quite awesome to see all those images gathered together in one place. In fact, I think the card section is the only part I have any real problems with. You're probably right that I should just put something together myself so I would know it was accurate. But your guide is still good and I would still recommend it to people as long as they know about the errors. The memorabilia side would have made an awesome book all by itself. Your work was not wasted, Phil. But I'm not shocked there are mistakes due to what seemed like a rush to publish.

Again, your book is worthwhile and definitely something anyone interested in this material should buy, as long as they are made aware of the inaccuracies. Plus, what other book features images of so many cards of albino Negro Leaguer George Brown?

-Ryan

cyseymour · #5 08-14-2013, 02:58 PM

Just for the record, I decided to keep the book.

bcbgcbrcb · #6 08-14-2013, 03:10 PM

Thanks, Ryan.

I think that just about everyone is in agreement that the guide is a great resource overall and, thanks to your review, I will be making all buyers aware of all known, major issues in written form in the very near future. I think that will satisfy both of us for the time being and also work out best for all of the collectors who have already purchased or will purchase a copy of the guide in it's present form in the future.

Maybe one day, a new, improved version will hit the market. We'll have to see.........

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Negro League Baseball Collectibles Guide	bcbgcbrcb	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	19	06-27-2013 06:18 PM
FINAL Negro League Baseball Collectibles Project Update	bcbgcbrcb	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	8	02-28-2013 06:32 AM
Negro League Collectibles Project II	bcbgcbrcb	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	3	02-22-2013 04:37 PM
Negro League Collectibles Project Update	bcbgcbrcb	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	14	02-22-2013 03:18 PM
SOLD: 1924 Reach Baseball Guide w/1923 Hilldale Daisies Team Photo (Negro League)	bcbgcbrcb	Baseball Memorabilia B/S/T	2	04-12-2012 06:38 AM