Over/Underpriced HOFers

[bcbgcbrcb]

Since both have rookie cards from the same set, 1968 Topps, Johnny Bench is considered by just about everyone to be the best catcher of all-time while Nolan Ryan is far from the best pitcher of all-time. Yet, Ryan typically sells for around 3X what Bench does??? Maybe the inclusion of Jerry Koosman on the Ryan card explains it........

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Since both have rookie cards from the same set, 1968 Topps, Johnny Bench is considered by just about everyone to be the best catcher of all-time while Nolan Ryan is far from the best pitcher of all-time. Yet, Ryan typically sells for around 3X what Bench does??? Maybe the inclusion of Jerry Koosman on the Ryan card explains it........

That is an injustice, for sure. Ryan got a lot of attention for his strikeout numbers and no-hitters, but he also led the league in walks several times. When you factor in the league era, plus Bench's defensive abilities, I would take Bench over Ryan if I were to start a team. And I would take Tom Seaver over Ryan in a heartbeat...

[markf31]

I'll suggest Ralph Kiner. Granted his career was pretty short, lasting only 10 seasons, but the HR numbers he put up in those years are nothing short of impressive. 5 straight season of 40+ homers including 2 seasons of 50+. He led the NL in HRs from 1946-52 and led all the majors in 1947-52. Those 6 consecutive seasons of leading the majors in HRs ties him with Babe Ruth (1926-31) for the most consecutive seasons to lead the majors in HRs.

His 1948 Bowman and 1948 Leaf cards which some consider his RCs as they were the first major sets to feature him, can be had the PSA/SGC 7 range for under $300!

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by markf31

I'll suggest Ralph Kiner. Granted his career was pretty short, lasting only 10 seasons, but the HR numbers he put up in those years are nothing short of impressive. 5 straight season of 40+ homers including 2 seasons of 50+. He led the NL in HRs from 1946-52 and led all the majors in 1947-52. Those 6 consecutive seasons of leading the majors in HRs ties him with Babe Ruth (1926-31) for the most consecutive seasons to lead the majors in HRs.

His 1948 Bowman and 1948 Leaf cards which some consider his RCs as they were the first major sets to feature him, can be had the PSA/SGC 7 range for under $300!

+1. Bill James once wrote that during Kiner's prime, he was the closest thing to Babe Ruth in terms of pure homerun hitting dominance that had been seen to that point in time. Going purely by memory, Ralph had the second best homerun frequency to the Babe (one every 14.1 at bats, versus one every 11.8) prior to the PED era. He drew a tremendous amount of walks, and had a lifetime on-base-% of just under .400 (.398). If he hadn't played for one of the worst teams in the majors, and had instead played for a contender, he could easily have won the MVP three or more times. Lifetime OBPS of .946, if memory serves correctly, which is almost other-worldly for a lifetime .279 hitter (how do I remember all this stuff?? I don't consciously try to!). Six times an all-star, it would have been seven, if he hadn't hit only 3 of his 51 homers in 1947 by June 3, and I believe six seasons of scoring 100 or more runs, despite having no foot speed to speak of!

Rather than his 1948 cards, try finding one of his '47 Tip-Tops--PSA has graded just 6, a number that hasn't changed at all in quite a few years (which probably ties in quite well with REA's statement that there have been less than 10 complete sets of the '47 Tip-Tops assembled in the history of the hobby)!

Despite significant price tags on some of their cards, I also think some of the rarer and more significant DiMag and even Gehrig cards remain undervalued in view of their true status as real legends of the game, not that far down from the Babe himself.

Good topic!

Larry

[packs]

I've always thought most of the Old Judge HOFers cards are over priced. I get it, for most of them its their only card and it's cool that there's a photo of the actual player on the card. But there are so many of them out there for a lot of them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The disparity between the price of Mantle and Mays (and Aaron) cards is wholly unjustified in terms of onfield performance.

[cyseymour]

I would take Mays over Mantle. But for Hank Aaron, Aaron was very, very good, but the Mick was great. Aaron had outstanding longevity but never reached the same level of peak performance as Mays or Mantle and I wouldn't put him in the same class, especially since he was a corner outfielder and not a CF.

[billyb]

CY,
I couldn't agree more, Aaron was a great player, but as an owner, I would rather have Mays or Mantle.

Peter,
Yes, there is a disparity between Aaron and Mays/Mantle dispute, as far as onfield performance goes. But that is not how this industry, judges players entirely. It is also their personalities, their fan and media appeal. That raises their value, both as a player for your team and at your gate.
If Ruth had Aaron's personality, he may have hit more home runs, but may be listed as just one of the best, instead of the best. It's what they do for the game, not just their stats.

[Ghumbs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The disparity between the price of Mantle and Mays (and Aaron) cards is wholly unjustified in terms of onfield performance.

I was just about to post this. Besides the issues with Mays' off-field persona, I'm sure the mere fact Mays moved over to the West Coast with the Giants has a lot to do with it. There are just significantly more Yankees and East Coast baseball fans out there (even now, let alone back in the 50s and 60s).

I personally feel Mays is probably best to ever play the game so far. It's just odd that Mantle's card values are head and shoulders above Mays'.

[Fred]

Without changing any stats, move Mantle to Milwaukee and put Aaron in a Yankee uniform... then try to figure out who's under/over priced....

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by packs

I've always thought most of the Old Judge HOFers cards are over priced. I get it, for most of them its their only card and it's cool that there's a photo of the actual player on the card. But there are so many of them out there for a lot of them.

I realize this has a lot to do with what people view as tough/scarce/rare, but I disagree with this statement.

Our own cyseymour did an analysis back in 2011 of the number of combined graded examples (PSA and SGC) of the OJ HOFers.

At that time, he found that the total graded examples ranged from a low of 19 examples (W. Robinson) to a high of 113 (Ward). However, 15 out of the 27 (as of 2011) had less than 50 combined graded examples per player.

Of course I know that OJs are known to have a larger-than-normal ungraded population with large collections held by old-school collectors.

But the graded numbers certainly don't reveal easy cards...especially for the tougher 15 HOFers.

Cheers,
Blair

[packs]

I"m mainly talking about players like Clarkson, Keefe and Brouthers. There seem to be a lot of them out there at any given time. Not that "a lot" for OJs means the same a lot for T206s, but some of them don't seem scarce.

[cyseymour]

Clarkson and Keefe were the two best pitchers of their era. Brouthers was the greatest hitter of that time period. You can get their low-grade OJ's with decent images for sub-$1000. I don't think they hold much investment potential, but its hard to see their prices dropping too much, either.

[billyb]

Undervalued, I have just one.....Jim Bunning

One hundred game winner in both American and Nathional League, and always in leaders in Ks. Durable, and professional.
Afterwards, entered politics and represented Kentucky proudly from 1987 to 2010. Wish I had all his stats in front of me, but I am sure you are all aware of his accomplishments after baseball.
Let's give the gentleman from Kentucky, appraise.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

Our own cyseymour did an analysis back in 2011 of the number of combined graded examples (PSA and SGC) of the OJ HOFers.

At that time, he found that the total graded examples ranged from a low of 19 examples (W. Robinson) to a high of 113 (Ward). However, 15 out of the 27 (as of 2011) had less than 50 combined graded examples per player.

Cheers,
Blair

Blair or Jamie, do you have a link to this? I've posted SGC and PSA pop reports on N172 HOFers a couple times and have interest in the topic but don't remember others doing so (although I could have missed it).

Old Cardboard summarized one of my earlier posts from the old Net54 forum back in 2005 (here). shortly after 2005 I stopped including PSA in my summaries because their numbers seemed to be in error (players would all of a sudden gain or lose a substantial number of submissions). SGC has also graded far more cards so I just stick with SGC.

I more recently looked at the HOFer pop reports after Deacon White was elected. It was no big surprise when I found Deacon to be the rarest HOFer (8 cards graded with no population increase since it was announced last year - December 2012). As for most common, that distinction belongs with Keefe (over 100 graded when including his two player cards with Richardson). Keefe has a pretty healthy lead over Ward for the most common HOFer.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

Blair or Jamie, do you have a link to this? I've posted SGC and PSA pop reports on N172 HOFers a couple times and have interest in the topic but don't remember others doing so (although I could have missed it).

I'll PM anyone who cares to have the link, but will keep it off this board out of respect to Leon.

Thanks

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

Blair or Jamie, do you have a link to this? I've posted SGC and PSA pop reports on N172 HOFers a couple times and have interest in the topic but don't remember others doing so (although I could have missed it).

Old Cardboard summarized one of my earlier posts from the old Net54 forum back in 2005 (here). shortly after 2005 I stopped including PSA in my summaries because their numbers seemed to be in error (players would all of a sudden gain or lose a substantial number of submissions). SGC has also graded far more cards so I just stick with SGC.

I more recently looked at the HOFer pop reports after Deacon White was elected. It was no big surprise when I found Deacon to be the rarest HOFer (8 cards graded with no population increase since it was announced last year - December 2012). As for most common, that distinction belongs with Keefe (over 100 graded when including his two player cards with Richardson). Keefe has a pretty healthy lead over Ward for the most common HOFer.

Hi Joe,

It would be great to see your most recent findings on this (even though we all appreciate that pop reports have their inaccuracies!) Maybe a new thread?

Cheers,
Blair