Over/Underpriced HOFers

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I completely disagree about Clemente. He is basically Ichiro with a little extra power. I don't think he is undervalued at all. If Ichiro had played his full career in the U.S. it would be Ichiro first and Clemente an afterthought in the conversation.

Ridiculous. Clemente would never be an afterthought in any conversation about the position. Ichiro is a great player in his own regard, but he played in an era where offense dominated the game. Clemente did not.

From 1960 until the end of his career, 13 years (from age 25 on), Clemente won 12 Gold Gloves, 4 batting titles (and finished second two other times. He finished in the top 5 in batting 9 out of the 12 seasons he qualified), hit .330 overall and averaged 207 hits per 162 games played. This while consistently facing such greats as Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Warren Spahn, Gaylord Perry, Don Drysdale, Tom Seaver, Jim Bunning, Don Sutton, Steve Carlton, Fergie Jenkins and Phil Niekro.

And that's not even considering his greatness in the field. He has 254 career assists, most in baseball history by a right fielder. Total zone runs above average by a right fielder, Clemente is #1 overall with 204. The next closest player is Al Kaline at 155. Ichiro is fifth with 109, but on a per year basis, he is way behind the Great One. Ichiro's average is 8.38. Clemente's yearly average is 11.3.

[Cardboard Junkie]

+1 What Bill said! Dave.

[oldjudge]

Ichiro spent some of his best years in Japan. Here is the comparison based on a 162 game season:

Clemente: .317, 94 runs, 16 hrs, 87 RBIs, 6 SB
Ichiro: .320, 100 runs, 9 hrs, 55 RBIs, 38 SB

Over his 18 year career Clemente won 12 gold gloves
Over his 13 year career in the US Ichiro won 10 gold gloves

Ichiro was also competing clean in an era dominated by steroids. Ichiro had the best arm in RF for most of his career and even at his advanced age still has one of the best arms in baseball.

And, since neither player was a power hitter, I have looked at the average league leading BA in their respective league during their career. The average NL league leading BA during Clemente's career was .343. The average league leading BA in the AL during Ichiro's career was .347. These are almost identical, despite the steroid affect during Ichiro's career.

[the 'stache]

How, exactly then, does Clemente become "an afterthought"?

[the 'stache]

And if we're comparing 162 game averages, do it right. Ichiro was 27 when he came to the US to play in the Majors. So, compare their careers from age 27 on.

Clemente: .329 AVG, 101 runs, 30 doubles, 12 triples, 19 HR, 95 RBI, 7 SB .376 OBP/.502 SLG/.877 OPS

Ichiro: .320 AVG, 100 runs, 26 doubles, 6 triples, 9 HR, 55 RBI, 38 SB .363 OBP/.416 SLG/.779 OPS

When compared this way, Clemente's OPS is nearly 100 points higher.

[oldjudge]

BTW, Ichiro's seven year Japanese career is even more impressive:

BA-.359, 17 HR, 74 RBI and 28 SB on average

I saw both play and I would rather have Ichiro on my team.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

BTW, Ichiro's seven year Japanese career is even more impressive:

BA-.359, 17 HR, 74 RBI and 28 SB on average

I saw both play and I would rather have Ichiro on my team.

Those numbers are impressive for Japanese baseball. However, I doubt Ichiro was seeing anybody like Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson in Japan.

You could take Ichiro, that's fine. I don't have any problem with your preferring one player to another. But saying Clemente would be "an afterthought" if Ichiro had played his entire career in America is simply ridiculous.

[cyseymour]

The trouble is that Japanese baseball is like AA ball. Comparing its stats to the majors is useless, unless you believe that Saduharu Oh is truly the greatest baseball player of all time.

Everything is babble but if you look at it, Ichiro had the advantages on the basepaths and Clemente was a better defender. But Clemente still produced at the plate much more than Ichiro.

It wasn't just steroids that made Ichiro's era more offensive than Clemente's - Clemente was facing off against a higher pitcher's mound which made it much more difficult for the batter as you are picking up the ball from a sharper angle.

But the metrics say that Clemente was a much better hitter. It is as simple as that.