Over/Underpriced HOFers

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Leon

How in the world anyone can think that someone that won 16 Gold Gloves in a row at 3rd base (Brooks Robinson) is underrated, I don't know. Maybe those folks have never played 3rd?

Leon, 3rd was actually my position growing up, I completely understand his greatness while fielding, the problem is the guy only hit .262 for his career. He was a good ballplayer don't get me wrong but I don't understand why his cards are worth on the level of the higher level HOFers when he was great in the field and mediocre (at best) at bat. No way his items should be trading at the levels of Frank Robinson, Yaz, or Ernie Banks (which is the category that his cards sell at).

[bender07]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Leon, 3rd was actually my position growing up, I completely understand his greatness while fielding, the problem is the guy only hit .262 for his career. He was a good ballplayer don't get me wrong but I don't understand why his cards are worth on the level of the higher level HOFers when he was great in the field and mediocre (at best) at bat. No way his items should be trading at the levels of Frank Robinson, Yaz, or Ernie Banks (which is the category that his cards sell at).

Good Gloves might be the worst way to determine defensive prowess. It's a popularity contest and often handed out by pure name recognition.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by bender07

Good Gloves might be the worst way to determine defensive prowess. It's a popularity contest and often handed out by pure name recognition.

Do you think that's the case with Brooks Robinson, though? Or could he flash a little leather?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Do you think that's the case with Brooks Robinson, though? Or could he flash a little leather?

No, I think with Robinson, and Clemente, it was warranted. I think today it's a little bit more of a popularity contest.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Leon, 3rd was actually my position growing up, I completely understand his greatness while fielding, the problem is the guy only hit .262 for his career. He was a good ballplayer don't get me wrong but I don't understand why his cards are worth on the level of the higher level HOFers when he was great in the field and mediocre (at best) at bat. No way his items should be trading at the levels of Frank Robinson, Yaz, or Ernie Banks (which is the category that his cards sell at).

It's so strange to me that we are equating Hall of Fame numbers, SABR metrics and then trying to somehow, someway equate them to card values. It's all about popularity and how we celebrate those players. For more than 50 years Brooks Robinson has held the heart of Baltimore. He is Mr. Oriole, the most loved player franchise history by a long shot. The last Brooks Robinson autograph signing I went to near Baltimore, I met no less than three dozen people aged 2 months to 50 years old named "Brooks". I certainly don't think of his .262 batting average when I buy his cards for a premium. I've enjoyed my conversations with Brooks and he has always treated everyone he has met like a close friend. On the other hand, I look at Frank Robinson who clearly has superior statistics....yet there are endless reports of him being a total a** h*** .... I wouldn't give two nickels for him.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

It's so strange to me that we are equating Hall of Fame numbers, SABR metrics and then trying to somehow, someway equate them to card values. It's all about popularity and how we celebrate those players. For more than 50 years Brooks Robinson has held the heart of Baltimore. He is Mr. Oriole, the most loved player franchise history by a long shot. The last Brooks Robinson autograph signing I went to near Baltimore, I met no less than three dozen people aged 2 months to 50 years old named "Brooks". I certainly don't think of his .262 batting average when I buy his cards for a premium. I've enjoyed my conversations with Brooks and he has always treated everyone he has met like a close friend. On the other hand, I look at Frank Robinson who clearly has superior statistics....yet there are endless reports of him being a total a** h*** .... I wouldn't give two nickels for him.

James, I totally get what you are saying, I too have never heard a bad word really spoken about Brooks as a human being, and I can understand his popularity, especially in Baltimore. That being said what you are saying is exactly what this thread is about, which players according to their numbers/stats/SABR/etc. are beloved beyond what they did on the field (ie "overrated" as it relates to them as ballplayers) and which players are somewhat overlooked despite gaudy numbers (ie underrated, if you will).

[tbob]

How in the world can anyone claim Brooks Robinson is overrated and rag on him while at the same time never mention a word about Ozzie Smith as overrated? As Leon mentioned, Brooksy had 16 Gold Gloves in a row at third base and was a real clutch hitter. The Wizard of Oz was a defensive gem at shortstop but how come no mention of his batting numbers while Robinson's are dissected.
Classy on and off the field, Brooks was the leader of team and rock solid his entire career.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by tbob

How in the world can anyone claim Brooks Robinson is overrated and rag on him while at the same time never mention a word about Ozzie Smith as overrated?

Really? how dare I answer the question as it was presented, seriously. Insert Ozzie's name in the place of Brooks Robinson and the same can be said about him, I tried to stay somewhat vintage and not include the guys who played predominately in the 1980's and 90's. I shouldn't have answered the question I guess when it relates to Brooks Robinson, apparently he is untouchable... His statistics are right there, this isn't about how great of a guy he is, simply from his statistical output the guy is a bit overrated, I thought that is what this thread was about? Feel free to disagree but I stand by what I said, taking out the emotional aspect he isn't on par "statistically" with the players whose cards trade at similar levels.

[digdugdig]

Originally Posted by tbob

How in the world can anyone claim Brooks Robinson is overrated and rag on him while at the same time never mention a word about Ozzie Smith as overrated? As Leon mentioned, Brooksy had 16 Gold Gloves in a row at third base and was a real clutch hitter. The Wizard of Oz was a defensive gem at shortstop but how come no mention of his batting numbers while Robinson's are dissected.
Classy on and off the field, Brooks was the leader of team and rock solid his entire career.

The proverbial nail-on-the-head ...as a BoSox fan as a young-un ... I just seem to remember clutch hitting on top of the great glove...I'm guessing Lee May would have some input

[Mark70Z]

By the way Brooks hit .267 for career, not .262 (not including post season). Another great player from the era Johnny Bench @ .267..then a bit later era Mike Schmidt @ .267 career. I believe if you look up the averages for the era I'm sure these three are all above average for sure.

Many just look at the '70 WS and watch the plays Brooks made, but he did it day in and day out throughout his career. It was "normal" for him to make such plays for the Charm City fans, but he became more famous to the public after that series and I believe he was 33 years of age by then...

I "know" I have to pay a premium for his cards.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Many just look at the '70 WS and watch the plays Brooks made, but he did it day in and day out throughout his career. .

One of my all time favorite plays (which occurred years before I was born, making it more impressive in my mind) is Brooks Robinson throwing out Lee May from deep deep in foul territory with all his momentum carrying him away from 1st base.

I'm a big time Brooks guy and strongly believe that stats don't tell all the story, especially when it comes to baseball card value. So much of what appeals to fans and collectors is totally subjective, so to break down players' OPS+ and how it relates to card values seems like a tough and indirect comparison. Don't get me wrong, I love breaking down stats and love all the discussion and opinions shared so far, but I also think there's a huge gray area involved. A lot of "value" is dicated by soft characteristics, the "warm and fuzzy" stuff- The amount nostalgia, fond memories, even romance a player may evoke (directly related to how beloved he was- see Brooks)... how much exposure he got in his playing days (clutch WS appearances, playing in NYC, etc)... were there cool, iconic sets to support his popularity during and following his playing days (always thought guys like Sisler/Heilman get gyped because they missed CJ and Goudey)... all play a big role in the value of his cards, and I think a much bigger role than stats like WAR, which are valuable but very non romantic.

That said, I'll still add a few.

Underpriced- I second on Sisler, the guy was a hitting machine. I also think guys from the same era like Simmons, Heilman get overlooked... and definitely think Eddie Collins, Tris Speaker, Nap Lajoie deserve some more love. For how great he was, I think Ted Williams' cards deserve a little bump as well.

Overpriced- probably Mantle, but per the above combo of nostalgia, NYC and WS exposure, looks/personality, and very iconic color cards to show him off, I see why he's commanded such a premium.