Here We Go Again!!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Hi Slipk,

There are certainly T206 experts here that will know more than I, as I have only recently started collecting "the Monster", and learning about it. But I have a few things to say, and I'll wait for some of the big guns on the forum to chime in.

First thing, never assume a card is real because it's been slabbed. Unless a card is in Beckett slab, always operate under the assumption that what you're looking at could be a fake. Thieves are counting on you making an assumption that a card slabbed by PSA or SGC is the real deal when they put a fake card in a fake slab, or a fake card in a real slab they've cracked. Always buy the card. Look it over carefully. If you have questions, ask your friends on Net 54. It's always better to ask then to buy something, only to find out later you've been burned.

When considering a card, I always compare it to a known legitimate example. This is what handwriting experts do when verifying the authenticity of a signature.

On the right is a good example from T206resource.com. The one in question is on the left.



The coloring on this one is all wrong. Look at the face on the fake. Also, look at the border surrounding the portrait. The real card has a black border. The fake has a brownish border. The card doesn't pass the smell test.

Now just to make it a bit less clear and more clear all at once.....

The overall coloring wouldn't necessarily put me off a card. There are some T206s that show differences in coloring.

And the grainy scan could simply be a bad grainy scan. Some sellers simply can't figure out how to have decent scans or pictures.

The borders can be thin on some subjects, and are almost always black or very dark gray, very occasionally they seem brown. The name is usually brown, but can be gray.

So it's often a matter of what's normal for that particular players card.
That's what makes the galleries at sites like T206 resource valuable. You can see a number of Wagners in decent detail.

In this case, there really aren't any with nearly missing borders, and none with such a large difference in color. So that combined with the grainy scan makes 3 rather large red flags.

As you see more cards, you'll develop a sense of what looks "right" and "wrong" Most people have to think about why a card looks wrong, but the reaction is often correct.

It's easier with a card in hand. So many things will be "wrong" about the fake they will be easier to spot.

The cracked holder with a swapped card either lower grade or an outright fake is a valid concern, and more reinforcement to the "buy the card not the holder" advice.

Steve B

[slipk1068]

Thanks Bill, Thanks Steve, Very Helpful information.

[Rollingstone206]

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[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Striker

Sigh.... sold for $2,999.99!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1910-Ho...-/151148559484

I thought that eBay had a rule regarding Wagner and a fat fistful of other cards, saying that they HAD to be TPG-ed.

[thehoodedcoder]

they do.

[ajw9356]

New to Net54 but not to cards, however this isn't my area of expertise.
I have seen and held a card that had the Piedmont back. The card was purchased by a local in Kansas where I live at an auction about 30-35 years ago according to the card owner. I looked over the card and it was in a box of tools when purchased and has a pretty good oil stain to prove that. The biggest issue I had with the card was that it appeared to have a clear coat or something on top of the card that was not part of the original card. I need to get some pics if the card ever comes back into daylight, but had a couple questions for those familiar with these cards. I thought it looked suspect with the coating, however, I trust the guy who has it that it was purchased that long ago.
1-from the photo reference I see a Piedmont back, this card was produced then? Not just Sweet Coporal?
2-Anyone ever see anything like some sort of clear coating (similar to a lacquer)? The coating is well aged, I'm a hobby woodworker and there is definite petina on the card as well as the coating?
3-he wants to send for grading at some point! I'm seeing SGC as a large player for T206, this is the best company? I know PSA is big in vintage, but pre-war SGC correct?
4-I'll see what I can do to get some high quality photos in the future but I can also get a magnifier out and look at the printing, what do I need to look for front and back for printing?
Edit5- When did fakes start showing up or reprints?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ajw9356

New to Net54 but not to cards, however this isn't my area of expertise.
I have seen and held a card that had the Piedmont back. The card was purchased by a local in Kansas where I live at an auction about 30-35 years ago according to the card owner. I looked over the card and it was in a box of tools when purchased and has a pretty good oil stain to prove that. The biggest issue I had with the card was that it appeared to have a clear coat or something on top of the card that was not part of the original card. I need to get some pics if the card ever comes back into daylight, but had a couple questions for those familiar with these cards. I thought it looked suspect with the coating, however, I trust the guy who has it that it was purchased that long ago.
1-from the photo reference I see a Piedmont back, this card was produced then? Not just Sweet Coporal?
2-Anyone ever see anything like some sort of clear coating (similar to a lacquer)? The coating is well aged, I'm a hobby woodworker and there is definite petina on the card as well as the coating?
3-he wants to send for grading at some point! I'm seeing SGC as a large player for T206, this is the best company? I know PSA is big in vintage, but pre-war SGC correct?
4-I'll see what I can do to get some high quality photos in the future but I can also get a magnifier out and look at the printing, what do I need to look for front and back for printing?
Edit5- When did fakes start showing up or reprints?

1-from the photo reference I see a Piedmont back, this card was produced then? Not just Sweet Coporal?

Yes, but probably not as a regular production card. I'm fairly sure all the Piedmont backed Wagners have odd issues.

2-Anyone ever see anything like some sort of clear coating (similar to a lacquer)? The coating is well aged, I'm a hobby woodworker and there is definite petina on the card as well as the coating?

Sometimes. Could be shellac or varnish put on to protect it, or is fake a more modern gloss coating
.
3-he wants to send for grading at some point! I'm seeing SGC as a large player for T206, this is the best company? I know PSA is big in vintage, but pre-war SGC correct?

Either would be fine. But I'd recommend posting a good front and back scan here. The overwhelming odds are that it's a reprint. And at the least we can save one of you some postage.
At least one of the very common reprints is Piedmont backed, and readily available. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T-20...item5d454885c8
4-I'll see what I can do to get some high quality photos in the future but I can also get a magnifier out and look at the printing, what do I need to look for front and back for printing?

If there's no factory shown at the bottom of the back It's probably fake.If there are signs or erasing where the copyright notice and "reprint" are on the back of the reprint linked above it's fake for sure. A couple of the other reprints may be piedmont backs too, but I can't find scans of them to be sure. The two big sets had a company name at the bottom of the back, so any problems in that area are almost a sure sign of a reprint.
The cardboard was one thickness, so if it looks at all like two layers it's probably a reprint skinned and glued to a real common.
The old printing looks very different than modern printing. The best thing is to get a low grade common T206 and study it. There should be plenty out there for under $20 maybe even closer to 10.

Edit5- When did fakes start showing up or reprints

Late 70's for sure, maybe early -mid 70's. Most of those were specifically made for collectors and have a back that describes the card. I have an earlier version that's black and white, so not exactly a reprint. But the later ones could fool someone if skinned and glued.

Steve B

[Rollingstone206]

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