Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry, even if they offered that option which they probably wouldn't because of the implication that they will do a worse job for $5, that only takes care of cards you submit yourself, and doesn't help at all in terms of buying cards already graded in the marketplace.

[HRBAKER]

The whole inter-related marketing mechanism is amazing. People send cards in relying on expertise that has been demonstrated repeatedly to be very limited. Auction houses rely on TPG because it essentially allows them to wash their hands of grading and authenticity issues even though again the system is very flawed. It comes down to the fact that customers vote over and over again that it is more important what the slab says than whether there is really a high level of expertise behind it. As long as slab = liquidity it is going to be this way.

I have really come to think that there is a large group of collectors that don't care at all if the card has been altered as long as it "numbers."

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

The whole inter-related marketing mechanism is amazing. People send cards in relying on expertise that has been demonstrated repeatedly to be very limited. Auction houses rely on TPG because it essentially allows them to wash their hands of grading and authenticity issues even though again the system is very flawed. It comes down to the fact that customers vote over and over again that it is more important what the slab says than whether there is really a high level of expertise behind it. As long as slab = liquidity it is going to be this way.

I have really come to think that there is a large group of collectors that don't care at all if the card has been altered as long as it "numbers."

That's exactly right Jeff. The slab gives everyone a free pass.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I have really come to think that there is a large group of collectors that don't care at all if the card has been altered as long as it "numbers."

Better late than never. What was it Dennis Purdy called PSA in his classic early 1990s screed in VCBC, a smoke detector without batteries?

[ElCabron]

I agree with Joe. Some people are unbelievable scumbags and outrageous criminals. Right, Joe? Back me up here, Joe. Hello? Joe???

-Ryan

[ullmandds]

How about...."people do the darnedest things?"

[T206Collector]

I think we should have a poll as to what the defense will be:

1. I should be rewarded for exposing the cracks in TPG.

2. Nothing I did was fraudulent, deceptive, or otherwise illegal.

3. I dropped the cards in a jar of Lena Blackburne's Rubbing Mud and upon brushing them off realized through none of my own intent that the cards were sharper and shinier.

4. You want answers? You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I think we should have a poll as to what the defense will be:

1. I should be rewarded for exposing the cracks in TPG.

2. Nothing I did was fraudulent, deceptive, or otherwise illegal.

3. I dropped the cards in a jar of Lena Blackburne's Rubbing Mud and upon brushing them off realized through none of my own intent that the cards were sharper and shinier.

4. You want answers? You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

It takes a lot to make me laugh but this did it

[ZachS]

Just catching up on this. Looks like we got some pretty good detectives here. Now I'm anxiously awaiting the response.

Who has the popcorn?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Better late than never. What was it Dennis Purdy called PSA in his classic early 1990s screed in VCBC, a smoke detector without batteries?

Yup. I have been plugging through the back run I bought a couple months ago and serendipitously began issue #23 last night. It has an article by Keith Olbermann about a grading gone terribly wrong titled "Slab This!!" and is as relevant today as it was in 2000 when it was published. I leave with you with the last paragraph.

"There is only one solution, and that is to presume that every card sealed in a plastic container has been altered, and, however innocently, pronounced authentic and original, nonetheless. In short, don't buy a slabbed card. Ever. Ever."

[glchen]

Originally Posted by conor912

Yup. I have been plugging through the back run I bought a couple months ago and serendipitously began issue #23 last night. It has an article by Keith Olbermann about a grading gone terribly wrong titled "Slab This!!" and is as relevant today as it was in 2000 when it was published. I leave with you with the last paragraph.

"There is only one solution, and that is to presume that every card sealed in a plastic container has been altered, and, however innocently, pronounced authentic and original, nonetheless. In short, don't buy a slabbed card. Ever. Ever."

But Olbermann has bought slabbed cards ....

[conor912]

Originally Posted by glchen

But Olbermann has bought slabbed cards ....

I believe he bought the Wagner before this particular debacle. I can not speak to what he has bought and sold since.

[T206Collector]

I'm just piecing some things together -- wasn't all of this vetted a year ago on the CU Board? What, if any, was the resolution there?

The most I could find was here:

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...entid=10134480

[barrysloate]

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

Collectors don't care enough to change things. Criminal deterrence is one possibility, but I am not sure how realistic proof beyond a reasonable doubt in this context is, even assuming a governmental body deemed this an important enough issue to devote lots of funding to, and even then, most card doctors and the auction houses that facilitate them have made a tremendous amount of money and can afford the best defense lawyers.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

...most card doctors and the auction houses that facilitate them have made a tremendous amount of money and can afford the best defense lawyers.

Hey no plugs. He can afford a banner ad.

[barrysloate]

I do believe Peter, that although we always say "buy the card, not the holder", a great majority of collectors do in fact swear by the label. If a card is trimmed but the label says 8, all is well with the world.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The ethical people who alter cards and the ethical ebay sellers and auction houses that facilitate them have made it a very difficult hobby to navigate for people who care to some extent about having unaltered cards in decent grades. The best I have been able to figure out is to scrutinize cards pretty carefully within the limits of my knowledge of how to detect alterations, to avoid certain sellers like the plague they are, and to VCP every card I am thinking of buying to see if it can be traced to one of those sellers. But I am sure it is only effective to a limited extent.

[botn]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

Do the police catch every thief or murderer? Does that mean we make sure that taxes no longer go to fund the police departments?

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by botn

Do the police catch every thief or murderer? Does that mean we make sure that taxes no longer go to fund the police departments?

The police are a public service, whereas a TPG is a service being offered sheerly for profit. If police were to stop receiving funding, social chaos would ensue. A card grading company is not obligated to be funded by the people, who can simply choose an alternative if the service does not meet advertised expectations.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The police are a public service, whereas a TPG is a service being offered sheerly for profit. If police were to stop receiving funding, social chaos would ensue. A card grading company is not obligated to be funded by the people, who can simply choose an alternative if the service does not meet advertised expectations.

So are you going to stop buying graded cards?

[MattyC]

Peter, no, not at all. I will happily continue to collect. I just think that what sometimes gets lost in the discussion, with there being more than enough (deserved) blame to direct at the card doctors, is the responsibility of the TPGs to keep stepping their game up. That's all.

Often times they do charge way more than $5 for their service. Depending on the value and turnaround time requested, a single card can cost quite a bit more than single digits.

Everyone has their own expectations and tolerance for those expectations not being met. I respect those differences in all of us. To each their own.

That said, I'd love to have bosses or customers who look at my performance when it's off and simply say, 'That's okay, you are doing your best.' It's impossible to quantify or know how hard the TPGs are trying, which makes any healthy debate difficult. All we can see is some of what gets through, and some of what is grossly misgraded. I would actually agree that they get it right the vast majority of the time, so the question each individual has their own right to answer is: what success rate is expected.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What is your basis for saying they need to step up their game? Don't you think in a competitive market they already are doing the best they know how? And if you don't think they are and have no faith in them, why do you continue to buy their product?

[D.P.Johnson]

If I'm not mistaken, there are several members of this board who have contacts at PSA and SCG, and this specific issue has been brought to their attention. Thus, since fairly solid evidence exists that this person "Joe" is altering cards and submitting them for grading, I wonder why the folks at PSA or SCG don't ban "Joe" from making further submissions...

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

If I'm not mistaken, there are several members of this board who have contacts at PSA and SCG, and this specific issue has been brought to their attention. Thus, since fairly solid evidence exists that this person "Joe" is altering cards and submitting them for grading, I wonder why the folks at PSA or SCG don't ban "Joe" from making further submissions...

+1

[botn]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The police are a public service, whereas a TPG is a service being offered sheerly for profit. If police were to stop receiving funding, social chaos would ensue. A card grading company is not obligated to be funded by the people, who can simply choose an alternative if the service does not meet advertised expectations.

Well of course, but my point was that the people who are in charge with catching the bad guys do not always get them despite doing everything in their power. So what are the alternatives?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

I am sure the grading services do the best they can, but the economics of the business, as well as the greater skills of card doctors, limit their effectiveness.