Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As in many other criminal enterprises, you need witnesses who will talk. I agree it's hard to prove based on physical evidence with a reasonable doubt standard. But if you get people to break the conspiracy of silence, there is a chance. These people all talk to each other and know what each other are up to.

This is EXACTLY what it will take to break this whole thing wide open. You have to bust one of the lower level minions, put the fear of God in them to get them talking, set up a sting...bingo, bango, bongo...

[PolarBear]

It's funny to me how similar this discussion is to the coin hobby, which I was part of for many years (years ago).

There are "coin doctors", who are apparently known in the hobby to many prominent people. However, no one seems to want to say who they are, or even if they do, and although the "authorities" seem to be on the case, no one ever seems to be brought to justice.

So again, it's nice to know the "authorities" are actively involved, but I'm skeptical that anything will actually be done about it.

The sports card hobby is about 20 years behind the coin hobby, and if the outcomes are the same, then don't expect anything meaningful to be done by the "authorities".

Education and Caveat Emptor are your best defense.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

It's funny to me how similar this discussion is to the coin hobby, which I was part of for many years (years ago).

There are "coin doctors", who are apparently known in the hobby to many prominent people. However, no one seems to want to say who they are, or even if they do, and although the "authorities" seem to be on the case, no one ever seems to be brought to justice.

So again, it's nice to know the "authorities" are actively involved, but I'm skeptical that anything will actually be done about it.

The sports card hobby is about 20 years behind the coin hobby, and if the outcomes are the same, then don't expect anything meaningful to be done by the "authorities".

Education and Caveat Emptor are your best defense.

You and Peter are correct. It's difficult ....

[slipk1068]

You all know the crooks are monitoring this site. They should be scared with the intense way you folks are investigating this stuff. Thank you for doing all you can to protect the hobby we love.

[drcy]

A difference between the coin hobby and the baseball hobby is baseball memorabilia collectors usually have baseball bats.

[slipk1068]

I am sure I will get slammed for this, but tell me what you think of this scenario:

Someone from Grading Company X is at the National in year 20xx and he meets someone from Grading Company Y at the bar. They both have close friends at their jobs. They get to talking and come up with an plan.

They keep a list of the serial numbers of some high end cards that they intentionally undergrade and are candidates for doctoring. Maybe they graded a Goudey Ruth a 6 that should have been a 7. Now, they have someone monitor auctions. If a card on their list comes to auction, someone they know buys it. It gets doctored and magically becomes an 8. It is an 8 because THEY ARE THE ONES WHO GRADE IT! They undergraded it originally, purchase it, doctor it, grade it a second time, then consign it.

Someone doctoring cards can make some money. Someone doctoring cards with the help of a couple insiders at a grading company and they can all make a lot of money. Someone doctoring cards with the help of a couple insiders at 2 grading companies and they can all make a fortune.

I have seen a lot of talk in this thread about card doctoring, some talk about incompetent graders, but what about collusion? Now, all you TPG defenders can start commenting on how whacky my conspiracy theory is.

[OFF CENTER TRADING]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I have seen a lot of talk in this thread about card doctoring, some talk about incompetent graders, but what about collusion? Now, all you TPG defenders can start commenting on how whacky my conspiracy theory is.

Not entirely crazy, in my opinion. Ultimately, cash is king, and greed rules. I'm sure you could propose a few more scenarios that would be dismissed quickly and easily by the masses, but a higher degree of professional skepticism in this hobby may just be warranted as collectors continue to be taken advantage of. Sometimes, it's not so easy to piece the puzzle together, but the sharing of information by honest individuals is key to preventing future breakdowns. Thank you again for the contributions in this thread.

In instances of widespread collusion amongst willing and able parties (who may just set benchmarks and lay foundations for the hobby), collectors will always face uphill battles in their quests for personal fulfillment. Motivations for profit from people we don't know should never be underestimated.

[drcy]

But seriously, the word is 'provenance.' As in, "At the very least show me where you bought the card." Presumably an owner didn't purchase the card sight unseen. There was a scan and a description from before he owned it. At the very least. This is the computer age.

If someone offered you a Picasso painting, you'd say "Where'd you get that?" But many graded card collectors often don't care that a PSA 10 seemingly popped out of nowhere. They seem to have no interest in knowing, in asking, or even thinking about, where the card came from, what it looked like when the current owner bought it.

Would this simple provenance inquiry be a panacea to all ills? No. Would it be relevant to the cards talked about here? Obviously. It's shown in action when you post the before photos. The problem is it should have been the purchasers who are asking about the history. And I would suggest also the graders.

[barrysloate]

So I was speaking to a hobby buddy of mine yesterday, who reads this board (but doesn't post) and he asked a really provocative question: given how much bad stuff is out there, given that many card doctors are staying at least one step ahead of the graders, why are people still sinking such incredible amounts of money into this stuff?

And I need a better answer than stuff trumps all. Sure, good stuff may trump all, but nobody wants to sink money into trimmed, altered, and counterfeit material. Is it that only a small percentage of collectors know about this? Is it they trust TPG implicitly? Are they turning a blind eye? Do they believe that only the other guy's stuff is bad and they own only unadulterated material?

You would think that if this information was widely circulated, the market should collapse. And yet we regularly see enormous sums of money being spent on this high grade material. I'm sure somebody can figure this out.

My answer is that as long as the label reads "8", it's an "8." Case closed. But I think it's more than that.