pwcc

tschock · #1 10-17-2013, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

The rules of Brents auction explicitly forbids the act of shill bidding. If it is OUR responsibility to adhere to these rules then how can we blame Brent for the people who do not listen?

Per PWCC:

The sportscard hobby hinges on the honesty and integrity of the seller. Too often we hear of fraud and other manipulation that serves to undermine the integrity of our hobby. Bidders deserve better, where bidding is 100% legitimate and uninfluenced by manipulations such as fraudulent (shill) bidding by the auction house, consignors, friends of consignors, friends of the auction house, or anyone else who participates insincerely with the sole intention of manipulating the sale price. We do NOT permit shill bidding of any kind and actively police our auctions to prevent such acts from occurring. If we learn that a bidder is questionable, we take action in the form of canceling the bid and blocking a bidder from participating in future auctions.

To preserve the integrity of the bidding process, we believe that eBay is the best forum to host auctions due to the privacy of the eBay platform. Unlike proprietary auction software, eBay�s platform is equally transparent to both the buyer and the seller. We don�t know the value of a bidder�s max bid, nor do our consignors, or anyone else. We've spent the last 15 years on eBay (since 1998) working to garner the trust of collectors and the hobby at large. Rest assured that you can trust our service and can participate in our auctions with the confidence that integrity is our #1 priority.

Respectfully, I have to question... "Where have you been?" What you are posting here simply is making Peter and Jeff's point (among others) for them.

This HAS been brought forward in the past and it goes UNANSWERED. It has been brought up again explicitly because Brent has posted to the forum. Peter simply was asking for Brent's response to this.

Either they are doing what they say they are doing (see bold and highlighted) or they are not.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 10-17-2013, 02:28 PM

FYI it took me about three minutes to find five (or maybe it was more) suspicious bidders who should be investigated. The stats people throw up in an effort to make this seem more overwhelming than putting a man on the moon don't impress me much.

jhs5120 · #3 10-17-2013, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

FYI it took me about three minutes to find five (or maybe it was more) suspicious bidders who should be investigated. The stats people throw up in an effort to make this seem more overwhelming than putting a man on the moon don't impress me much.

What type of "investigation" do you wish Brent would conduct on these 5 suspicious bidders?

tschock · #4 10-17-2013, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

What type of "investigation" do you wish Brent would conduct on these 5 suspicious bidders?

Jeez, you posted this yourself.

If we learn that a bidder is questionable, we take action in the form of canceling the bid and blocking a bidder from participating in future auctions.

steve B · #5 10-17-2013, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

FYI it took me about three minutes to find five (or maybe it was more) suspicious bidders who should be investigated. The stats people throw up in an effort to make this seem more overwhelming than putting a man on the moon don't impress me much.

How?

I decided to try it myself, looked at about 25 auctions bid history. Only checked patterns that looked odd.

That took roughly 13 minutes.

I did find three bidders I thought were a bit suspect, and two maybes.

But over a couple thousand auctions the hours spent would be close to what Jason had. And call it statistics, but the costs I figured would be the costs no matter what you call them. Checking requires labor, those workers need to be paid.

I do agree that some effort would weed out the most obvious problem bidders.

I'm not so sure that would reduce the overall problem since those bidders might be replaced with new problem bidders.

And I have doubts that such light scrutiny would satisfy you.
If a big consigner came on once a month and said he'd spent a half hour and banned 5 people would you be ok with that? Or would you demand that he look into every bidder.
If he looked into every bidder on items over 250 would that be ok, or should it be every bidder on every item?

And what's the threshold for "suspect" a couple bid retractions? A certain pattern? Someone intent on shilling will work around almost any detection method. (See also computer anti-virus programming. They're written nearly as fast as the AV can be adjusted to block them)

I agree shilling is bad, and that some steps should be taken. Persoanlly I'd be happy with any genuine effort by any of the large consignment companies.

But it does have to be tempered with a bit of realism. Not all suspect patterns are shills. Not all shills can or will be caught. It doesn't mean not trying.

Ebay allowing people with too many retractions to be blocked would be a very big help. And for Ebay it wouldn't be that hard or expensive. (Not counting the lost fees from shilled items.) They already have the programmers on the payroll.

So far no takers on bankrolling a shiller detection program..........Not that I'm expecting any.

Steve B

nsaddict · #6 10-17-2013, 05:13 PM

Does this one qualify??

http://tinyurl.com/k3d63f8

same dude..........underbidder

http://tinyurl.com/lkvfruk

CobbvLajoie1910 · #7 10-17-2013, 05:33 PM

Crickets.

slipk1068 · #8 10-17-2013, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsaddict

Does this one qualify??

http://tinyurl.com/k3d63f8

same dude..........underbidder

http://tinyurl.com/lkvfruk

That 1 is enough proof for me. Also someone in that auction with 0 feedback bidding 12k with plenty of time left in the auction to retract the bid and someone with 14 feedback and 4 bid retractions in the last 6 months bidding 11k plus.

D@v1d $h1p$ey

drcy · #9 10-17-2013, 05:57 PM

The only way to prevent hard to detect crimes is to have the worst possible punishment when caught. I suggest execution by a razor toothed sloth, starting from the feet up.

In real life, there is a poisonous boa, but it doesn't squirt the poison from it's teeth as with vipers. Rather, it holds its victim still, spits the poison on the victim then chews it in.

Or as was Woody Allen's punishment in prison in Take the Money and Run: 7 days locked in a sweat box with an insurance salesman.

cincyredlegs · #10 10-17-2013, 06:03 PM

People are shilling auctions; not just Probstein or PWCC. I know it, you know, even Rick and Brent know it. Here is my take:

-People continue to go to Probstein and PWCC because they are getting top dollar.

-Shilling drives up the prices so the seller maximizes his profits as well as Probstein and PWCC.

-Probstein and PWCC are doing nothing illegal (as long as they are not the ones shilling).

-So if Rick and Brent were to REALLY get tough and police it, what would it do to their business? Would they start to lose customers because they were not getting top dollar anymore?

So what is their vested interest in doing anything about it?

Funny thing is I know a guy who won his own auction that he consigned to Rick, paid for it, Rick mailed the card back to him then he sent back to Rick to re-list.

Mark

Peter_Spaeth · #11 10-17-2013, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cincyredlegs

People are shilling auctions; not just Probstein or PWCC. I know it, you know, even Rick and Brent know it. Here is my take:

-People continue to go to Probstein and PWCC because they are getting top dollar.

-Shilling drives up the prices so the seller maximizes his profits as well as Probstein and PWCC.

-Probstein and PWCC are doing nothing illegal (as long as they are not the ones shilling).

-So if Rick and Brent were to REALLY get tough and police it, what would it do to their business? Would they start to lose customers because they were not getting top dollar anymore?

So what is their vested interest in doing anything about it?

Funny thing is I know a guy who won his own auction that he consigned to Rick, paid for it, Rick mailed the card back to him then he sent back to Rick to re-list.

Mark

And yet you have people like Larry (painthistorian) who care about their integrity and their buyers, who take measures such as the ones he outlined above to stop these practices.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 10-17-2013, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsaddict

Does this one qualify??

http://tinyurl.com/k3d63f8

same dude..........underbidder

http://tinyurl.com/lkvfruk

That's another thing one sees spending a few minutes clicking through the high dollar auctions -- same bidders with mega retractions or high percentage with seller, bidding on disparate items that seemingly one person would not collect. Here, the Mantle rookie and a Cabrera autograph. That is imprecise and circumstantial, of course, but noticed it many times.

slipk1068 · #13 10-24-2013, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsaddict

Does this one qualify??

http://tinyurl.com/k3d63f8

same dude..........underbidder

http://tinyurl.com/lkvfruk

PWCC scan looks fine to me in my example. This is a bigger issue.

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