pwcc (part two)

[calvindog]

Gary, you must have gotten some great prices on your consignments with PWCC. You're twisting yourself into a pretzel defending some pretty obvious fraud.

[leaflover]

There are days, thru my eyes, when my collection looks NM-MT and other days when it looks only EX-MTor worse. Do scanners have bad days too?

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by leaflover

There are days, thru my eyes, when my collection looks NM-MT and other days when it looks only EX-MTor worse. Do scanners have bad days too?

Huh, just the other day I had the same thought...except some days they look Gd/Vg and other days when it looks like crap...

[glchen]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Gary, you must have gotten some great prices on your consignments with PWCC. You're twisting yourself into a pretzel defending some pretty obvious fraud.

I wish. I think I only did well on that Exhibits Cobb that you won.

[cyseymour]

As far as I can tell, we haven't done a single thing to rectify the problem. All we've done is hold a massive kangaroo court with a bunch of people snapping at each other. We've got a lawyer who thinks that everyone ought to complain to law enforcement, but if you ask him specifically whom we ought to call, he can't tell you. He won't say. So we have reached the point where absolutely nothing has been done except create three threads that are a basically just a bunch of people bickering with each other about scans and scanners. Maybe that's because no one other than us even cares about this. Maybe law enforcement isn't the least bit interested, and this whole thing has been nothing more than a source of entertainment.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

As far as I can tell, we haven't done a single thing to rectify the problem. All we've done is hold a massive kangaroo court with a bunch of people snapping at each other. We've got a lawyer who thinks that everyone ought to complain to law enforcement, but if you ask him specifically whom we ought to call, he can't tell you. He won't say. So we have reached the point where absolutely nothing has been done except create three threads that are a basically just a bunch of people bickering with each other about scans and scanners. Maybe that's because no one other than us even cares about this. Maybe law enforcement isn't the least bit interested, and this whole thing has been nothing more than a source of entertainment.

I agree, a whole lot of entertainment....Brent's laughing all the way to the bank....

[frankbmd]

Does anyone know how many Rocky movies there were?

FYI - a seventh is being planned.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Does anyone know how many Rocky movies there were?

FYI - a seventh is being planned.

There ya go Frank, defusing an argument about nothing that is gonna change, with a question that requires too much thought for a Friday night.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

As far as I can tell, we haven't done a single thing to rectify the problem. All we've done is hold a massive kangaroo court with a bunch of people snapping at each other. We've got a lawyer who thinks that everyone ought to complain to law enforcement, but if you ask him specifically whom we ought to call, he can't tell you. He won't say. So we have reached the point where absolutely nothing has been done except create three threads that are a basically just a bunch of people bickering with each other about scans and scanners. Maybe that's because no one other than us even cares about this. Maybe law enforcement isn't the least bit interested, and this whole thing has been nothing more than a source of entertainment.

Yes Jamie. That's what is called due process. If you've been scammed report it. The authorities will investigate, or not depending on how solid your complaint is. "Some guy cheated some other guy out of $100 over the internet" Probably isn't going to go far. They have to balance the cost of investigating with the end result. And they need more than our saved copies of scans to make it stick.

Jeff L - Please correct me if I have any of this wrong.

I'm assuming the cost of making the case and seeing it through would be .....A lot, at least by my standards.

Frankly, while I think altering scans to get a few extra bucks is very wrong and not at all smart (Because eventually someone will add up all the times it was likely done and see a nice number to go after) I'd rather see the FBI and even the local PD spend their time on the people doing far worse things.

Steve B

[HRBAKER]

Again at the end of the day you are ultimately responsible for what you do. If you think something smells and you continue to bid anyway then I guess it didn't really bother you that much did it. It's good to know when you think this stuff goes on so you can make a personal decision about who to and not to do business with.

[Eric72]

Again, I loathe to tread...however...have a question. Would a class action lawsuit be in order? It seems as though a skilled prosecutor might be able to line up a great many similarly situated plaintiffs.

A successfully litigated case just might be enough to deter future fraudsters from misrepresenting the online images of the items being offered for sale...at least, it should do so for the major players.

If PWCC realizes exceptionally high prices for their items through manipulating images in an unscrupulous manner, then drag them into court. If not, then cut bait and move on. I really don't see any other way to handle this issue.

Just my two cents. Others can, will, and should disagree.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Again, I loathe to tread...however...have a question. Would a class action lawsuit be in order? It seems as though a skilled prosecutor might be able to line up a great many similarly situated plaintiffs.

A successfully litigated case just might be enough to deter future fraudsters from misrepresenting the online images of the items being offered for sale...at least, it should do so for the major players.

If PWCC realizes exceptionally high prices for their items through manipulating images in an unscrupulous manner, then drag them into court. If not, then cut bait and move on. I really don't see any other way to handle this issue.

Just my two cents. Others can, will, and should disagree.

Best Regards,

Eric

Eric a prosecutor works for a government, and does not bring a class action lawsuit.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

As far as I can tell, we haven't done a single thing to rectify the problem. All we've done is hold a massive kangaroo court with a bunch of people snapping at each other. We've got a lawyer who thinks that everyone ought to complain to law enforcement, but if you ask him specifically whom we ought to call, he can't tell you. He won't say. So we have reached the point where absolutely nothing has been done except create three threads that are a basically just a bunch of people bickering with each other about scans and scanners. Maybe that's because no one other than us even cares about this. Maybe law enforcement isn't the least bit interested, and this whole thing has been nothing more than a source of entertainment.

There is not a lot we can do as a group. However, we can do our own individual part. I made a commitment not to bid on any of Probstein's auctions after it was discovered he was protecting shill bidders. I have honored that commitment. It's been hard as I've seen some cards that I wanted to bid on, but I refrained from doing so. As I mentioned in the other thread, I don't bid on Brent's stuff anyway. So, I feel like I'm doing my part by not giving them any of my business.

If what has been brought to light bothers anyone, they can choose not to do business with these guys. If they continue to do business with them, then they have no right to complain. Right?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

As far as I can tell, we haven't done a single thing to rectify the problem. All we've done is hold a massive kangaroo court with a bunch of people snapping at each other. We've got a lawyer who thinks that everyone ought to complain to law enforcement, but if you ask him specifically whom we ought to call, he can't tell you. He won't say. So we have reached the point where absolutely nothing has been done except create three threads that are a basically just a bunch of people bickering with each other about scans and scanners. Maybe that's because no one other than us even cares about this. Maybe law enforcement isn't the least bit interested, and this whole thing has been nothing more than a source of entertainment.

Jamie, three people who sold fraudulent game used jerseys were sentenced today to jail time in a federal court in Rockford, IL. Again, as usual, you're clueless. Of course that won't stop you from typing up every thought that crosses your brain. Law enforcement reads not only Net 54 but this thread -- and yes, they're laughing at you as well.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Jamie, three people who sold fraudulent game used jerseys were sentenced today to jail time in a federal court in Rockford, IL. Again, as usual, you're clueless. Of course that won't stop you from typing up every thought that crosses your brain. Law enforcement reads not only Net 54 but this thread -- and yes, they're laughing at you as well.

Unless Brent is prosecuted, then I'd say that you're the one who is clueless, Jeff. Because if law enforcement is reading this, and they don't prosecute Brent, then clearly they are laughing at you.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Unless Brent is prosecuted, then I'd say that you're the one who is clueless, Jeff. Because if law enforcement is reading this, and they don't prosecute Brent, then clearly they are laughing at you.

Do you talk out of your ass all day? I mean is that what you do for a living? You have no idea how the process works and yet you continue to blabber on like a fourth grader. Why don't you focus on what you know? Like your scanner.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Do you talk out of your ass all day? I mean is that what you do for a living? You have no idea how the process works and yet you continue to blabber on like a fourth grader. Why don't you focus on what you know? Like your scanner.

Don't think that insults are going to get you out of this. You said that we should complain to law enforcement, then where is the phone number? You said that Brent's committed fraud, then where is the prosecution? It's put up or shut up. Like always.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

As far as I can tell, we haven't done a single thing to rectify the problem. All we've done is hold a massive kangaroo court with a bunch of people snapping at each other. We've got a lawyer who thinks that everyone ought to complain to law enforcement, but if you ask him specifically whom we ought to call, he can't tell you. He won't say. So we have reached the point where absolutely nothing has been done except create three threads that are a basically just a bunch of people bickering with each other about scans and scanners. Maybe that's because no one other than us even cares about this. Maybe law enforcement isn't the least bit interested, and this whole thing has been nothing more than a source of entertainment.

I don't think even "we" care enough to make a stand. How many people here (among those who believe this auctioneer has some serious issues that have yet to be addressed) would refuse to bid with him or consign to him? I hope I am wrong but my presumption is that most people are not wiling to take a stand if it means any degree of sacrifice including passing on a baseball card they want.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think even "we" care enough to make a stand. How many people here (among those who believe this auctioneer has some serious issues that have yet to be addressed) would refuse to bid with him or consign to him? I hope I am wrong but my presumption is that most people are not wiling to take a stand if it means any degree of sacrifice including passing on a baseball card they want.

You're never going to get a boycott of an auction house unless it's a de facto boycott because everyone is terrified that they won't get their cards or consignment checks as what occurred to one poster who consigned with Legendary and got stiffed. If there is enough easily noticed fraud or funny business with an auction house, some law enforcement body will investigate. Doesn't have to be the feds. Keep in mind that there are NUMEROUS investigations going on right now of auction houses in our hobby. Just because they're not public doesn't mean that they don't exist. People are going to prison. Auction house principles have been sued for fraud. Consignors who have conspired with auction houses to defraud bidders have been successfully sued or have reached out of court settlements. The bottom line is, as victims here we have more power than we think. Don't be so quick to assume everyone is getting away with it, they're not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You're never going to get a boycott of an auction house unless it's a de facto boycott because everyone is terrified that they won't get their cards or consignment checks as what occurred to one poster who consigned with Legendary and got stiffed. If there is enough easily noticed fraud or funny business with an auction house, some law enforcement body will investigate. Doesn't have to be the feds. Keep in mind that there are NUMEROUS investigations going on right now of auction houses in our hobby. Just because they're not public doesn't mean that they don't exist. People are going to prison. Auction house principles have been sued for fraud. Consignors who have conspired with auction houses to defraud bidders have been successfully sued or have reached out of court settlements. The bottom line is, as victims here we have more power than we think. Don't be so quick to assume everyone is getting away with it, they're not.

I agree a boycott is too ambitious to be practical, but as a matter of principle I still think people should refuse to deal with people they think are fraudulent. I know we have disagreed on this before.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by glchen

I wish. I think I only did well on that Exhibits Cobb that you won.

That's ok, Gary, I had a better year than you -- by the end of January.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by calvindog

That's ok, Gary, I had a better year than you -- by the end of January.

Jeff, don't be so sensitive. I was being sarcastic, and obviously the cost of that card was chump change for you.