Maddux, Glavine, and the Big Hurt in the HOF

Robextend · #1 01-08-2014, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

At least he got more than Palmeiro and Sosa.

I'm very surprised at how little support Mussina and Jeff Kent got.

What's the story with Kent? Do people think he juiced? Aside from Sandberg, I can't think of a better second baseman during his prime.

I am with you on Kent, one of the top offensive 2B of all time. Could his awful relationship with the press be a factor? If it is, that's just nonsense, but I can't think of anything else. I can't recall him ever coming under PED suspicion.

CMIZ5290 · #2 01-08-2014, 02:05 PM

Does anyone know how Maddox will go in, Braves or Cubs?

Peter_Spaeth · #3 01-08-2014, 02:08 PM

According to the JAWS metric used by Baseball Reference, Kent is ranked 17th among second basemen, and Biggio 14th.

z28jd · #4 01-08-2014, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Does anyone know how Maddox will go in, Braves or Cubs?

It's up to the Hall of Fame, with some input from the players, but I'd be shocked if he didn't go in with the Braves. One more season in Atlanta, 510 more innings and he was much better with them. That should be enough to safely assume it's with Braves.

The Jeff Kent lack of support surprises me a little, though with ten maximum votes and at least 16 legit candidates, they created a logjam which won't clear up next year with Randy Johnson, John Smoltz and Pedro Martinez all on the ballot. They will replace the three guys that fell off, plus 400 other votes will open up from Jack Morris and others that received under 5% of the votes.

I've said this before, but now that he dropped off the ballot, it needs to be said again. Rafael Palmeiro may have done steroids, but I think he got screwed big time by Miguel Tejada.

First you have when he failed a test. It was after all eyes were on him. It was after he announced he was retiring. It was after he had his milestones and his team was eliminated. There was literally no reason for him to take steroids. He didn't even need to be playing when he did, he could have cut out early with zero on the line.

Then you have Tejada, who has failed two tests and was caught buying large supplies on PEDs and he claimed what he gave him was a B12 shot.

So now everyone is basing Palmeiro being guilty on the fact that he failed at a moment when he had zero to gain from cheating and his positive test came from one of the biggest known cheats(between his failed tests and supplies he bought). Tejada also lied about his age and he was banned from Winter ball for owning part of one team and playing against them. He has done so much wrong in baseball, why would anyone believe him on any subject.

Like I said, I still think Palmeiro did something prior to being caught but common sense screams that he was screwed by Tejada back then. Who knows what would have happened without that failed test, but I sincerely doubt he would be off the ballot now after reaching 3000 hits and 500 homers.

novakjr · #5 01-08-2014, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z28jd

Like I said, I still think Palmeiro did something prior to being caught but common sense screams that he was screwed by Tejada back then. Who knows what would have happened without that failed test, but I sincerely doubt he would be off the ballot now after reaching 3000 hits and 500 homers.

Without the failed test, he WOULDN'T be on the ballot right now, he'd have already been elected..

packs · #6 01-08-2014, 04:45 PM

Are you forgetting the circus Palmeiro voluntarily created for himself? He demanded to speak in front of Congress and then lied to everyone on video tape about taking drugs only to fail shortly after his appearance.

He is a joke and should never be considered for the HOF. There is nothing to feel sorry for either as he brought this all on himself.

midwaylandscaping · #7 01-08-2014, 04:52 PM

Raffy brought that on himself, no doubt. Couldn't have made himself look like a bigger fool.
Not wanting to create a crapstorm, but there's a part of me that's surprised Roberto Alomar, I player I like, collect a few things of, got in as quick as he did with the AIDS/HIV/Gay rumors circling around him as they were. It would not have shocked me if he had been blackballed. The way these voters are.

CMIZ5290 · #8 01-08-2014, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Are you forgetting the circus Palmeiro voluntarily created for himself? He demanded to speak in front of Congress and then lied to everyone on video tape about taking drugs only to fail shortly after his appearance.

He is a joke and should never be considered for the HOF. There is nothing to feel sorry for either as he brought this all on himself.

+1 big time....

z28jd · #9 01-08-2014, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Are you forgetting the circus Palmeiro voluntarily created for himself? He demanded to speak in front of Congress and then lied to everyone on video tape about taking drugs only to fail shortly after his appearance.

He is a joke and should never be considered for the HOF. There is nothing to feel sorry for either as he brought this all on himself.

That's why I don't feel sorry for him and like I said, I believe he did steroids at some point, as did most players in that era. What I do believe is that he would still be on the ballot if not for Tejada. There is just too much pointing towards his test being the fault of Tejada to not say the result, while correct, was tainted by someone else. There was absolutely no reason for him to be on steroids when he failed and plenty of reasons why it didn't make any sense, especially with all the focus on him.

calvindog · #10 01-08-2014, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Does anyone know how Maddox will go in, Braves or Cubs?

I'm certain as a Brave.

JollyElm · #11 01-08-2014, 05:33 PM

Two thoughts:

Kent was an offensive dynamo, an RBI machine at second base. Come on!! He definitely should be in. I cried when the Mets traded him away.

Speaking of the Mets, Glavine was just a waste of space when he ended up at Shea. It was a joke for us to say, "If the Hall of Fame voters ignore his time on the Mets, Glavine may get in."

#12 01-08-2014, 05:48 PM

Pete Rose

chris6net · #13 01-08-2014, 10:13 PM

Would have liked to see Biggio get in. I went to HS with him in Kings Park NY. He was 1 year younger but I played little league and up with him and he was a star from 6 years old. He also won the award in his senior year at Kings Park for best football player in Suffolk County which has over one million people in the county(very impressive)
CN

VoodooChild · #14 01-08-2014, 02:20 PM

How is Biggio not in yet? How can they justify voting nobody in last year when a guy with 3,000+ hits, including hitting more doubles than any other right-handed batter ever, all while playing THREE of the most difficult and physically demanding positions C, 2B, CF, was on the ballot. And then for him to not get in this year was a total snub. I'm sure he'll get in next year, but still felt like ranting a little. I just really appreciated the way he played the game....Old School.

Robextend · #15 01-08-2014, 02:25 PM

Don't wanna argue too much on Biggio v Kent, but Kent batted 290 for his career vs Biggio's 280 which tells you that Biggio was a bit of a compiler...his last 6 or so years he hit more homers than he usually did, but his peripheral numbers kind of stunk.

The only 2B in history with more RBI (1,518) than Kent are Hornsby and Lajoie. And I could be wrong but I believe he has the most HRs ever by a 2B.

In any event, Biggio will get in next year and it looks like Kent never will.

bravesfan22 · #16 01-08-2014, 02:29 PM

As a huge braves fan I am so happy to see my favorite player tom glavine go in. I was 7 when the braves won the world series and I remember it like it was yesterday. That could be because I watched the world series tape released after what seemed like every day for years. Go Braves!

itjclarke · #17 01-08-2014, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robextend

I am with you on Kent, one of the top offensive 2B of all time. Could his awful relationship with the press be a factor? If it is, that's just nonsense, but I can't think of anything else. I can't recall him ever coming under PED suspicion.

I think any PED suspicion around Kent would be very suspicious in its own right. He (along with Glavine) were among the first to go on record and demand testing, etc. He was a "red ass" and rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, but absolutely deserves the vote. Think he'll get in eventually.

Very happy for Thomas.. he was just about the best all around hitter (prior to DH years) in baseball for a time and was one of few in the very early '90's that combined high BP/OBP with power (seems like everyone did from about 1994 on.. but he was tops before that).

Also really bugs me that Crime Dog is virtually a forgotten man. Never heard any PED rumors there and for a time from the late '80's into mid-late '90s he was the most consistently good power hitter in baseball. I will never forget how his aquisition and Aug/Sep hitting offensively carried the Braves past my 103 win Giants in the 1993 West Race. Didn't have those fluke (or juice) induced 50 plus HR breakouts, but ALWAYS hit over 30. Compared to Tony Perez, Jim Rice, Orlando Cepeda, Yaz, etc I have no idea why he's not getting more consideration.

Peter_Spaeth · #18 01-08-2014, 03:07 PM

I think McGriff was hurt by not being associated with any one team. His numbers compare quite favorably to, for example, Andre Dawson, and look a lot better than Cepeda or Tony Perez.

howard38 · #19 01-08-2014, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I think any PED suspicion around Kent would be very suspicious in its own right. He (along with Glavine) were among the first to go on record and demand testing, etc. He was a "red ass" and rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, but absolutely deserves the vote. Think he'll get in eventually.

Very happy for Thomas.. he was just about the best all around hitter (prior to DH years) in baseball for a time and was one of few in the very early '90's that combined high BP/OBP with power (seems like everyone did from about 1994 on.. but he was tops before that).

Also really bugs me that Crime Dog is virtually a forgotten man. Never heard any PED rumors there and for a time from the late '80's into mid-late '90s he was the most consistently good power hitter in baseball. I will never forget how his aquisition and Aug/Sep hitting offensively carried the Braves past my 103 win Giants in the 1993 West Race. Didn't have those fluke (or juice) induced 50 plus HR breakouts, but ALWAYS hit over 30. Compared to Tony Perez, Jim Rice, Orlando Cepeda, Yaz, etc I have no idea why he's not getting more consideration.

Crime Dog had the bad luck to have his best season during the strike year of 1994. He was on pace for about fifty HRs which would not only given him the huge year voters love but also would have put him over 500 for his career.

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