Horizontal t206's

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by wazoo

Or you could think of Dunn catching a fly ball, bending backwards a little. I mean, the position of the glove would probably not be correct, but maybe that was the way he caught fly balls?

Seems like his glove position is wrong for a fly ball. The ball would hit the heel and then hit him in the face. Not that I know from experience ......

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

Seems like his glove position is wrong for a fly ball.

Exactly. I spent a lot of time looking at Google images.

If you Google images of "catching fly ball" they all have one thing in common - the glove faces out (away from their body), not as the Dunn card shows where the glove is faacing in. That would not be the correct position to catch a fly ball.

However, if you Google images of "diving for catch" it shows images of players with the glove facing up or down, so he could definitley be diving for a catch, glove facing up.

[bn2cardz]

It seems like everyone wants to overlook the possibility of it being a diagonal representation of the original picture.

I have been wondering if there has been a single picture of a diving catch prior to the web being put on the glove? I haven't seen one (that is not saying much as I am young and don't collect vintage photos). I have seen posed images on Old Judge, but those have always seemed more of sliding for a fast ground ball. Too me it seems that without the web of the glove a dive for a ball would not be the smarter move as I would assume the impact of the ground would knock the ball loose more times than not. Especially if you aren't going to brace for the fall as you would have to assume Dunn is not doing if you want to believe this is horizontal.

Again. I am not saying they didn't dive but I haven't seen evidence that they did.

[slipk1068]

Fly ball, He is setting up to make a basket catch. With soft hands, he is going to lower them and give with the ball. In the old days, basket catches were WAY more popular than they are today. This has always been my opinion.

[ullmandds]

i thought the debate was horizontal vs vertical? I wouldn't rule out a "diagonal" portrayal...but I still believe it is meant to be vertical and I think slipk1068's description is spot on.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i thought the debate was horizontal vs vertical? I wouldn't rule out a "diagonal" portrayal...but I still believe it is meant to be vertical and I think slipk1068's description is spot on.

Right but the diagonal portrayal still would help determine if it was originally a vertical picture that was tilted slightly to fit the confines of the space or was it a horizontal picture to start with.

I still have not seen a single reason this should be horizontal other than "I like it that way". Which is fine if you want to display it that way, but it definitely won't sway any opinions. I am merely making a point as to why I believe it was vertical to start with by going beyond the "I like it that way" approach.

I like the effort made thus far to find pictures used for t206 cards that Scott has displayed on t206themonster.com website. Until I found the Bender on his site I wouldn't have even thought of the tilt option. I hope he has the oppurtunity to add this Dunn picture soon.

Even if I am wrong and it is a diving catch, I would love to see a vintage photo of a diving catch because, as stated previously, I haven't seen one.



EDIT: Sorry I was posting my reply at the same time you decided to bow out of this conversation. It was not meant to pull you back in.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Right but the diagonal portrayal still would help determine if it was originally a vertical picture that was tilted slightly to fit the confines of the space or was it a horizontal picture to start with.

I still have not seen a single reason this should be horizontal other than "I like it that way". Which is fine if you want to display it that way, but it definitely won't sway any opinions. I am merely making a point as to why I believe it was vertical to start with by going beyond the "I like it that way" approach.

I like the effort made thus far to find pictures used for t206 cards that Scott has displayed on t206themonster.com website. Until I found the Bender on his site I wouldn't have even thought of the tilt option. I hope he has the oppurtunity to add this Dunn picture soon.

Even if I am wrong and it is a diving catch, I would love to see a vintage photo of a diving catch because, as stated previously, I haven't seen one.

Hold tight, Andy...don't let 'em sway ya!!

The point of this thread is not to necessarily sway anyone, but to try to figure out which pose seems more logical

The only reason we are having this friendly debate is because the card was done so poorly...giving us no indication either way, but I guess it is fun trying to figure it out.

[CW]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Right but the diagonal portrayal still would help determine if it was originally a vertical picture that was tilted slightly to fit the confines of the space or was it a horizontal picture to start with.

I still have not seen a single reason this should be horizontal other than "I like it that way". Which is fine if you want to display it that way, but it definitely won't sway any opinions. I am merely making a point as to why I believe it was vertical to start with by going beyond the "I like it that way" approach.

I like the effort made thus far to find pictures used for t206 cards that Scott has displayed on t206themonster.com website. Until I found the Bender on his site I wouldn't have even thought of the tilt option. I hope he has the oppurtunity to add this Dunn picture soon.

Even if I am wrong and it is a diving catch, I would love to see a vintage photo of a diving catch because, as stated previously, I haven't seen one.



EDIT: Sorry I was posting my reply at the same time you decided to bow out of this conversation. It was not meant to pull you back in.

These are the two keys for me... we already have evidence of a prior card being slightly rotated counterclockwise in the Chief Bender card. If you take the vertical pose of Dunn making a basket catch and rotate it a few degrees counterclockwise, you end up with the pose found on the T206 of Dunn.

In addition, we have numerous cards in the hobby of players making basket catches similar to the view of Dunn positioned vertically, yet we have no examples of cards from the era showing players making a diving catch.

Yes, we still have a shred of possibility that the original Dunn image was a diving catch with Dunn laying out horizontally, but SO much of the evidence points to the original image being a vertical Dunn making a standard basket catch.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by CW

we have numerous cards in the hobby of players making basket catches similar to the view of Dunn positioned vertically, yet we have no examples of cards from the era showing players making a diving catch.

+1

Those old gloves had NO pocket. If you tried to catch a fly ball with your hands above your head, palm turned outward, the ball would bounce out of your glove. I would venture to say that 90% or more of popups in 1910 were basket catches. I could be wrong with that number, but certainly basket catches were the norm and over the head catches were by far the exception.

You folks are looking at this through 21st century eyes instead of 19th/early 20th century eyes. I am sure that any baseball fan who pulled this from a pack or kid who collected this in 1910 viewed this as a basket catch and didn't even consider it to be a diving catch. Jack Dunn is camped under a fly ball setting up to make a basket catch on his T206 card.