New Old Judge discovery

the 'stache · #1 01-25-2014, 04:35 AM

I'm not sure why KO's politics needed to be brought into this topic at all. Invariably, those discussions devolve into some sort of partisan pissing match.

Can we please just enjoy these newly discovered cards, and keep the elephant and donkey out of the room? Thank you.

sportzjunky · #2 01-25-2014, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I'm not sure why KO's politics needed to be brought into this topic at all. Invariably, those discussions devolve into some sort of partisan pissing match.

Can we please just enjoy these newly discovered cards, and keep the elephant and donkey out of the room? Thank you.

+1............. back on subject. Thank you to KO, Jay & Joe.. GREAT STUFF and more exciting stuff for the hobby and incredible pub for the Old Judge and 19th century cards. Please keep it there.

Exhibitman · #3 01-25-2014, 08:56 AM

Joe, Jay, other OJ masters, what is the relative scarcity of GQ cards with the wavy logo at bottom as compared to OJ cards with the wavy logo at bottom? Any idea as to the ratio between the two?

dstudeba · #4 01-25-2014, 09:18 AM

Joe - Thanks so much for those scans. Hopefully that clears up a lot of confusion for collectors.

E93 · #5 01-25-2014, 09:24 AM

As Jay suggested, this should not change the N172 catalog, but would it not suggest the possibility of another yet-to-be-discovered N172 California League card if it is indeed a GQ and all GQs have a corresponding N172? Or do you think there is too little known about California League GQs since this would make 3, even though the only other one does have a corresponding N172?
If it does imply the potential existence at one time of a couple more N172 California League cards, would that change how we think about N172 California League card production? These are just questions from a relative N172/N173/N175 novice. WOuld love to hear more about what the experts here think.
JimB

z28jd · #6 01-25-2014, 10:18 AM

A new California League OJ is highly possible because of the known number of just 19 subjects and the fact they number so low each(1-3 examples known). I wouldn't doubt that there WERE more out there, it's just a matter if they survived all this time and now someone has to find them and know what they are looking at when they do.

I still think it is possible that an N172 card showing a player on Buffalo exists because a collection found years ago in an old desk had spots for each team marked and there was a spot for Buffalo. Every other team that was marked is a known team from the set

Joe_G. · #7 01-25-2014, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E93

As Jay suggested, this should not change the N172 catalog, but would it not suggest the possibility of another yet-to-be-discovered N172 California League card if it is indeed a GQ and all GQs have a corresponding N172? Or do you think there is too little known about California League GQs since this would make 3, even though the only other one does have a corresponding N172?
If it does imply the potential existence at one time of a couple more N172 California League cards, would that change how we think about N172 California League card production? These are just questions from a relative N172/N173/N175 novice. WOuld love to hear more about what the experts here think.
JimB

As John stated, it is entirely possible that more California League N172s will be discovered however the poses will not match the GQ portraits discussed in this thread. It would now appear that the California League GQs date to 1887 or maybe 1888 (more research on Clements and Donovan may pinpoint date of issue) while the California League OJs date to 1889. It is possible that some players, such as McDonald, can be found in both GQ (portrait) and OJ (action pose), while others cannot based on when and where they played. Thus far, all three GQs are from the same team, Greenhood & Moran team of Oakland. If the GQs are in fact an 1887 issue, there could conceivable be cards from the San Francisco Pioneers, San Francisco Haverleys, and Sacramento Altas as well. If the GQs date to 1888 then Sacramento is replaced by Stockton. By the time 1889 rolled around and the OJ brand began issuing California League cards, Oakland, San Francisco, and Sacramento would be represented with Stockton being the only team without a card. Plenty of opportunities for more OJ and GQ players to surface but their shear rarity means many of them are probably lost to time forever.

Joe_G. · #8 01-25-2014, 11:15 AM

No mention of Clements on the 1888 roster on Baseball Reference, unfortunately they do not have the 1887 roster for comparison. I'd lean towards late 1887 as the date of issue as Jay has suggested in the past.

1888 Greenhood & Moran Roster
Varney Anderson
George Borchers
John Cahill
Roscoe Coughlin
F. Delmas
Jack Donohue
Jack Donovan
Jocko Flynn
William Gurnett
Lou Hardie
George Harper
Phil Knell
Fred Lange
Dan Long
Frank Loughran
Tom McCord
Jim McDonald
Billy Newbert
John Ryan
Perry Schaffer
Joseph Shea
Will Smalley
John Strunz

Joe_G. · #9 01-25-2014, 11:15 AM

Interesting team composite of 1887 team. McDonald & Donovan present, Clements absent. In this composite, the players are not in uniform.

oldjudge · #10 01-25-2014, 11:19 AM

In all honesty, since there is only one copy each of the three Greenhood and Moran cards, we don't even know if they were actually issued. They could have been proofs for a potential issue(if the two trimmed cards are part of the same series as McDonald). Greenhood and Moran was a store in Oakland. Perhaps they sold cigarettes and were working with Goodwin on a project to put cards in the packs issued in the Bay Area, but the project died in the planning stage. I agree with Joe in that these images will not show up as N172s. I also agree that there are more California League N172s to be found. Nineteen is an odd number, and there are no Stockton cards known.
Adam, the serpentine Old Judge and Gypsy Queen boxers, based on my experience, are pretty much equally common.

oldjudge · #11 01-25-2014, 11:20 AM

Joe--Roster with Clements is in Spalding's book

the 'stache · #12 01-26-2014, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

In all honesty, since there is only one copy each of the three Greenhood and Moran cards, we don't even know if they were actually issued. They could have been proofs for a potential issue(if the two trimmed cards are part of the same series as McDonald). Greenhood and Moran was a store in Oakland. Perhaps they sold cigarettes and were working with Goodwin on a project to put cards in the packs issued in the Bay Area, but the project died in the planning stage. I agree with Joe in that these images will not show up as N172s. I also agree that there are more California League N172s to be found. Nineteen is an odd number, and there are no Stockton cards known.
Adam, the serpentine Old Judge and Gypsy Queen boxers, based on my experience, are pretty much equally common.

A very interesting theory.

Joe_G. · #13 01-25-2014, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Joe, Jay, other OJ masters, what is the relative scarcity of GQ cards with the wavy logo at bottom as compared to OJ cards with the wavy logo at bottom? Any idea as to the ratio between the two?

Adam, difficult for me to answer as this is specific to issues outside of baseball which is where most of my research is focused. The answer may vary based on whether you just look at just boxing vs other subject matters or perhaps may even be impacted by imported vs exported cards etc. I also don't know if the wavy advertisement at bottom is only limited to a single year. Perhaps Jay has some thoughts here.

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