Bid Retractions - A Punk Move?

[MattyC]

Bill,

The hobby is entirely what you make it, to you. It's about you and your collection, the pursuit of a card you have long wanted, finding that example that you know is The One, and sharing those cards and victories with fellow enthusiasts who appreciate them. It's about the joy the cards give you.

I believe it was Bob Marley who once said, "It's a foolish dog who barks at a flying bird." I take it to mean, don't make yourself upset over things far beyond your control.

Much of what you are talking about is The Registry Game and TPGs. We can choose to get upset about that-- about those actions others are taking-- or we can choose not to. Being upset in some cases is a simple choice. If some guy wants to pay 15k for a card that a grader has labeled "Number X," which many of us don't think is worthy of that grade, then hey, that's a guy and his money. And if his goal is to see his set rise in GPA over others, then that's a game some are playing. If people are happy, then cool.

If you put too much energy and focus on the TPG game, it can drive you nuts. It's like anything that gets SUBJECTIVELY graded or evaluated. It is not an exact science or math. For example, in college I once wrote a paper, handed it in, it got a C. I was LIVID. I just knew and believed the paper was much better. I later handed the SAME paper in to another teacher for another class, as the same novel was read for that other class. It got an A. I then realized the silly nature of subjectivity. One man's trash is another's treasure.

Take hit movies or TV shows, too. Also subjectively evaluated products. Seinfield and Sopranos for example were both rejected. The first buyers to hear those shows passed, essentially saying they were poor. Then other buyers heard the same pitch, but judged the product as gold.

I don't mind if many are out to profit on cards. They are often rare and desired by many and therefore valuable. People want to sell them and people want to buy them. If it turns you off that TPGs are so subjective, which in turn creates grey areas and opportunities for cards to bump, and in turn sell for exponentially higher prices to Registry guys, then one can collect raw, or embrace the best advice out there:

Buy the card and not the holder.

You grade the graders with your eyes and wallet. You pay what you want. If someone gets a lucky grade or a crappy grade, or if someone wants to pay big for a crappy 10, again it in no way influences your decisions and purchases-- which create your collection.

I think most savvy, experienced collectors do know that the smart buy is the undergraded card. That many deserving 10s can be found in 9 holders. But here's the salient point, for me: who needs a grader to tell them what they have? If I know my card in PSA 1, for example, is a better looking card than a "higher graded" 2 that is, say, OC with stains and creases, I don't need a grader to ever validate that or tell it to me.

The decisions and the power lie in your mind and your choices. What we let bother us, and what we simply choose to not let bother us.

Lastly, when it comes to scams, there are attempted scams everywhere. Look at insider trading on Wall Street, or pump and dumps. There's a shady element to almost anything that involves value. But the individual is always in charge of what they let bug them, and I for one simply refuse to let subjective grades or anything else affect the joy I get from collecting rare and beautiful pieces. It's just too much fun.

Anyways, hope those points help.

[the 'stache]

I keep going back to the feeling that the market, or in this case the hobby, is being manipulated. And while you and I, and a lot of other honest to goodness collectors aren't involved, we still get some of the associated stink on us. I know there are ways to avoid much of the BS that's going on, but it's hard for me to turn a blind eye to it all.

I'll be ok. Sometimes I just need to clear the air, and when I see something that I feel is unethical, I just boil over.

[bobbyw8469]

Bill....I really liked your post. It perfectly exemplifies what I am dealing with personally with my 'association' with the hobby right now. I don't have anything to add - you said everything perfectly.

Matt - I just read your rebuttal. That was good too.

I think this link shows it best.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trks...at=0&_from=R40

When you have a 'worthless' 8 selling for only $30, a half point higher 8.5 selling for over double that at $76, and a half point higher than that - the 'mint' 9 selling at over 15 TIMES the price of the 8 - well....that is why the hobby has so much greed and problems with it. The ironic part is - I CAN'T SEE A F***ING THING DIFFERENT IN ALL THREE CARDS!! THEY ALL LOOK VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL!!!

[MBMiller25]

Bill/Bobby and Matt you all make great comments.

Bill and Bobby, I was in a similar position as you about a year ago. I actually sold a good portion of my collection off because I was disgusted with what I was seeing in the hobby. Its funny, I wanted to know as much about this hobby as I could possibly know, and meet and have relationships with as many of the high end dealers that sell what I collect. What I didn't bargain for with this quest for knowledge is just how political this hobby is, and the games that are played all in the name of money and greed. I too, am guilty of this. A perfect example is having already high end cards reviewed because I felt they were under-graded and in my case I got burned. I did this because I thought I was being slighted, and didn't want to miss out on my piece of the pie. There are some great dealers/people in this hobby, honest as the day is long. There area also some scum in this hobby. Unfortunately anywhere there is money to be made, greed and corruption with follow. Its everywhere.

As Matt C has said much more eloquently than I am saying, this hobby is just that. Its a hobby. Its all about what you make of it. If you let every little thing you perceive as being a "wrong" upset you, your not going to have much fun, (which I presume is the case right now). Enjoy the hobby for what it is.
It is when I got to this point, that I stopped worry about everything else, and focused on what I enjoy in this hobby.

TPG is just that. Its an opinion from some guy/girl that probably doesnt know anymore about the hobby than we all know. Its just an opinion. Look at cards and buy what you like, what aesthetically pleases your eye, and don't worry about the rest.

When I stopped worry about the symantics surrounding the hobby and just focused on myself and the cards I enjoyed, this became a lot more fun for me. I hope it turns around for the both of you, I really enjoy both of you on these boards and reading/viewing what you have to share.

[ALR-bishop]

I am still having fun. Just a hobby for me

"You just keep thinking Butch, cause that's what you're good at"....Sundance Kid

[the 'stache]

Matt C,

I went back and reread your response (as well as the pm you sent), and you really do make some outstanding points. Consciously, everything you said makes sense to me, and I should be able to just say "buy what I like, ignoring the tpg determination for the most part, using it only as a starting point". But it's so damned hard for me to disengage what amounts to the cynical part of my mind. Sometimes I am over-analytical, which can be both a blessing and a curse depending on what I am doing at the time. And a healthy cynicism, especially in this hobby, is a good thing. It keeps me on my toes. I think once I get back into collecting again here pretty soon, some of this other stuff will subside.

Robert,

Those '57 George Kell cards are a perfect demonstration of what I'm talking about. Here's a comp for future discussion:



Currently, these cards, all being sold by PWCC, all ending at the same time, are exhibiting wide bid variance.

The PSA 8 is at $37.00 with 1 day 13 hours to go. 30 bids.
The PSA 8.5 is at $76.00 with 1 day 13 hours to go. 16 bids.
The PSA 9 is at $455.09 with 1 day 13 hours to go. 24 bids.

The PSA 8 looks like it has corners not quite as sharp, but there isn't that big a difference between these three cards unless you break out the magnifying glass.

Bidder: u***l ( 8,235 Feedback score is 5,000 to 9,999) has 7 bids on the PSA 8, and 23 bid retractions in the last 6 months, including 1 on this auction (if I am reading this right).

Bidder: i***r ( 1611 Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) has 5 bids on the PSA 8.5, and 21 retractions in the last six months, including 3 on this auction.

And lo and behold, Bidder: u***l ( 8235Feedback score is 5,000 to 9,999) has 7 bids on this PSA 9.

So, the same guy is bidding on both a PSA 8 and a PSA 9?

Something seems rotten here.

Matt, I'm glad that you are still here after being burned out. That tells me that I'm not alone, and that I can, too, move past this.

[MattyC]

Look at all the fun and camaraderie we've been having here the last few months-- it's been a blast. Look at how much we enjoy the cards and the pursuit of the tough ones. Why would anyone want to let negativity fester and grow in their minds, and infect the purity and goodness of their relationship with cards? The cards are at once art, tickets to time travel, representations of greatness on the field, memories, invitations to learn more about history, and, yes, items of great if not inestimable value-- all wrapped in one. Am I going to let some $20 an hour grader ruin that, because occasionally they give an overly generous grade out, or let some shiller ruin that, when I can snipe? Hell no.

There is nothing wrong with great items having great value. More guys want them than there are examples. That makes total sense. That's why I for the most part stick to tough cards that are already expensive enough in LOW GRADE. I couldn't even dream of owning some of my cards in high grade. We all know that 10 is a gimmick and the difference between 9s and 10s is infinitesimal. It is also ironically the biggest price difference. Paying the biggest difference in price for the smallest difference in card is patently silly, so why give it any credence? That's like banging your head against the wall because someone out there, who's not you, is doing something ragingly stupid across the planet. Meanwhile there are tons of guys like you who know the real score whom you can hang with.

Seriously, a registry says Ruth's RC is his 33 Goudey. Equates one Joe DiMaggio 1940 PlayBall in PSA 5 as more valuable than a Zeenut Batting 2 and a 1937 OPC 2. Equates 10 commons in 10 to a Brett RC in truly deserving 10. With all these facts and more, to take it too seriously is the real mistake. If some people want to let a website tell them what to buy, and buy labels regardless of whether the card matches the grade, that's what they do in their backyard and I hope they have fun.

When it comes to the third party system, it definitely helps in some major ways. It's done good for the hobby. But we cannot let it get to us when we see things like this below...





Don't get me wrong: I think the other card is tremendous just for existing, and would be happy to own it. I just would not grade it higher than the other. But how crazy would it be for me to let that imbalance poison my passion for the former card?

Here's the kicker: the market speaks and at auction, side by side, the 1 will sell for more than the 2. Proof that collectors' eyes and votes are the final grade, not some sticker.

Heck, a few guys said the Brett 9 is better than the 10. That is all the validation that 9 or I need. Who wouldn't hold what fellow collectors say in higher esteem than what a sticker says? Trying to get a hardcore registry collector to concede that their 10 is not a 10 or as good as a 9 out there, that's not a realistic or productive goal. If a guy adores and takes huge pride in his 10 whose grade I don't see as correct, who am I to piss in his Cheerios? Now if he seeks me out and tries to flex and floss, then I will be happy to politely explain why I am not jocking a bad 10 or letting a set GPA tell me what's better. Then he'll probably see the light

Now let's turn to selling for a quick second. I applaud guys who know what the card is and price it based on their assessment. I recently paid DOUBLE VCP for a PSA 5 Mantle. The seller knew it was better than 6s and most 7s. He priced it that way. Along comes a collector like me who buys the card and not the holder. I paid his price, because I knew I could not find a better CARD for the price-- and the STICKER WAS UTTERLY IRRELEVANT, other than providing me with authentication and card protection.

Same thing with my Satchel. And same seller. He knew his 1.5 SP was superior to many higher grades. I agreed, and paid accordingly. I don't need the grade to change, not when-- for FREE-- I can get the grades from my fellow collectors, whom I respect the most. That's the salient point.

When time for resale, I say sure, take a review shot in the holder if you feel lucky and if the card really merits it. Again I think the TPGs overall are great for the hobby and most of the time do their best. And as collectors, the undergrades save us much money. We don't have to buy the overgrades. And when it's time to sell your 9 that you know looks as good as any 10, go ahead and price it like or near a 10. And tell prospective buyers politely that you're all about the card, and they can try and find a better one, but they won't be able to. And if they collect cards, they will agree and buy it. I'm proof it happens. And if they collect holders, so be it, their choice.

Lastly, if a card truly merits the grade, odds are, upon review, it will wind up where it rightfully belongs. No system is completely perfect; and if that grade does matter to someone and it was in error, there is a protocol in place to rectify that, as imperfect as it may be.

In the end, great cards speak for themselves, and we just need to put as much weight in our own opinions and each others' opinions, as in a TPG opinion. That's a real easy thing to do, and frees the mind up to enjoy the cards.

[MattyC]

Bill,

Of your three examples, I think the 8.5 and 9 are sharpest. I would probably buy the 8.5 if it was markedly lower than the 9. That represents value for the CARD. The grades look pretty accurate. I'd say the 8.5 is best, because I like his clean image (no cheek blemish), the centering, and whiter borders. But that I concede is a subjective call, as others may prefer the better edges and corners of the 9.

So the hair is very fine between the 8.5 and 9. How much is that hair worth? To me, not much. And I won't pay a big price difference for a small card difference. But to some guys, maybe the half grade up is worth much more, whether they need the 9 for their Registry GPA or just want to say they own the "better grade."

However it shakes out, what matters is that the winners are happy with their cards. If they are, all good.

When it comes to the bidding shenanigans, sniping is an amazing tool. It renders everything a best offer or card show scenario. You make you best offer and either it wins or it doesn't. I think retracting and shilling is bush league, but because I can't talk sense to those people, I won't be the dog barking at the bird. I will snipe and win what I want for my collection, namely undergraded classics, like THIS BAD BOY...

[ALR-bishop]

If it is really just a hobby for someone, they do not care what a 3d party thinks about the cards they collect. When it comes to post war Topps or Fleer, I am confident I know more about those cards than anyone at a grading company. I do not need someone's seal of approval on what I collect

If cards were an investment for me, or an important part of my estate planning, that would be a different situation completely.

The only time I get down is when reading threads obsessing over what the grading companies are doing....only kidding, I just move on to something else more interesting to me.

I do think the post war regulars here are a great group and very much enjoy the cards that are posted and the ongoing exchange of information

[japhi]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Bill....I really liked your post. It perfectly exemplifies what I am dealing with personally with my 'association' with the hobby right now. I don't have anything to add - you said everything perfectly.

Matt - I just read your rebuttal. That was good too.

I think this link shows it best.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trks...at=0&_from=R40

When you have a 'worthless' 8 selling for only $30, a half point higher 8.5 selling for over double that at $76, and a half point higher than that - the 'mint' 9 selling at over 15 TIMES the price of the 8 - well....that is why the hobby has so much greed and problems with it. The ironic part is - I CAN'T SEE A F***ING THING DIFFERENT IN ALL THREE CARDS!! THEY ALL LOOK VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL!!!

Apologies for the back to back posts but just picking through the thread. This just goes to prove my point...

If you can get a card for 30 bucks that looks very similar to a card that sells for 15x more I very good value in the lower priced card.

[ALR-bishop]

If money was not the object, why would anyone give a darn about what someone else thinks about your cards or the cards you want to collect or the cards you buy. I am sure glad none of that bothers me one bit