Oldest commercially produced baseball card?

Baseball Rarities · #1 02-09-2014, 09:13 PM

First is the 1869 NY Clipper Ad advertising the CDV coupled with the St. Ann address and the second is an 1871 NY Clipper Ad with three of the different trade cards (1868 Atlantics, 1869 Red Stockings and 1870 Mutuals) along with the ultra rare 1871 team composite CDV's at the 126 Nassau St. address.

drcy · #2 02-09-2014, 09:39 PM

That they were for sale in 1871 doesn't mean they were made in 1871.

orator1 · #3 02-10-2014, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

First is the 1869 NY Clipper Ad advertising the CDV coupled with the St. Ann address and the second is an 1871 NY Clipper Ad with three of the different trade cards (1868 Atlantics, 1869 Red Stockings and 1870 Mutuals) along with the ultra rare 1871 team composite CDV's at the 126 Nassau St. address.

Interesting thread...Have any of the "1871 team composite CDVs" been offered at action? I'm interested in seeing an image of the 1871 Boston team CDV.

E93 · #4 02-10-2014, 12:22 AM

The first baseball card set in the traditional sense that needs no further explanation or justification was the 1885 N167 Old Judge set.
JimB

barrysloate · #5 02-10-2014, 05:14 AM

Kevin- that's a fascinating ad and the first time I've seen it. I'd like to match those lineups with the year of the team. Boston wasn't formed until 1871 so I assume the other lineups are for their respective 1871 teams.

Of course, as was pointed out, it's not clear re: the 1868 Atlantics and 1869 Red Stockings whether they were still being printed, or if they were merely being offered as leftovers that never sold. My guess is the latter. Since they were in the process of distributing the current teams, they probably were done printing the old ones. Great document that needs some more attention.

Rich Klein · #6 02-10-2014, 05:18 AM

How about the 1868 Atlantics? That even pre-dates 1869

barrysloate · #7 02-10-2014, 05:18 AM

I want to also add that I'm pretty sure Peck & Snyder produced mammoth plate photographs of some of the key teams, such as the 1869 Red Stockings, but it doesn't appear any of them survived.

GaryPassamonte · #8 02-10-2014, 06:50 AM

Kevin's ad mentions "separate" players? Could there have been individual cdvs or trade cards? Interesting that there is no mention of Creighton?

barrysloate · #9 02-10-2014, 07:28 AM

I noticed that too Gary, and I'm picturing those composite CdV's that REA had several years back. But I'm not sure.

And I don't believe that Peck & Snyder issued the Jim Creighton. Corey would need to answer, but as I recall there is no store advertising on the reverse.

Baseball Rarities · #10 02-10-2014, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orator1

Interesting thread...Have any of the "1871 team composite CDVs" been offered at action? I'm interested in seeing an image of the 1871 Boston team CDV.

Here are the CDVs that I am aware of. Stole these images from the web as well.

Leon · #11 02-10-2014, 12:31 PM

Those are cool. Thanks for showing them and also thanks for all of the information. Great stuff.

oldjudge · #12 02-10-2014, 12:55 PM

I agree with Barry. The first widely available baseball card set was almost surely the N172 set. As for the first baseball cards, I think Rob made a good argument with the 1863 Grand Match souvenir tickets.
I think with the Peck & Snyders we will never know when each of the trade cards were issued. We know the CdVs with the Chadwick book advertising were issued in 1869. With the trade cards, and this includes the Creighton, we have no idea. Corey has an interesting theory that the black printing Cincinnati trade cards predate the red ones. I don't know if this is true or not. I don't know if the 1868 Atlantics trade card was issued in 1868 or 1871. The one in REA last year had the address trimmed off so it is difficult to assign a date to it. Corey, you have one, what is the address on the back of yours?
At the end of the day, the first card discussion will likely end up at the same place as the rookie card discussion. Everyone has their own definition, most likely the definition that benefits them personally the most. Personally, as was true with the rookie cards, I don't care.

barrysloate · #13 02-10-2014, 01:14 PM

Kevin- those are the CdV's I referred to, and I assume that is what they meant by individual players, since those images are just a composite of those players laid out and reshot by the photographer. But I don't believe there is any advertising directly linking them to P & S.

Edited to add they probably hired J.A. Pierce to produce them, and sold them in their store or through their catalog.

orator1 · #14 02-10-2014, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Kevin- those are the CdV's I referred to, and I assume that is what they meant by individual players, since those images are just a composite of those players laid out and reshot by the photographer. But I don't believe there is any advertising directly linking them to P & S.

Edited to add they probably hired J.A. Pierce to produce them, and sold them in their store or through their catalog.

So the CDVs now known as "J.A. Pierce" could actually be the "Peck & Snyder Life Photographs" from the ad? That would be a significant discovery. If proof can be found that these are P&S, potentially 7 new team CDVs could be added to the "Peck & Snyder" checklist.
Peck & Snyder teams from the ad:
BOSTON
CHICAGO
OLYMPIC
ATHLETIC
CLEVELAND
ROCKFORD
KEKIONGA

Have any of the above 1871 teams been documented with Peck & Snyder advertising?

Jeffrompa · #15 02-10-2014, 07:26 PM

Love the CDVs . I think this debate will go on for awhile .

benjulmag · #16 02-10-2014, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I agree with Barry. The first widely available baseball card set was almost surely the N172 set. As for the first baseball cards, I think Rob made a good argument with the 1863 Grand Match souvenir tickets.
I think with the Peck & Snyders we will never know when each of the trade cards were issued. We know the CdVs with the Chadwick book advertising were issued in 1869. With the trade cards, and this includes the Creighton, we have no idea. Corey has an interesting theory that the black printing Cincinnati trade cards predate the red ones. I don't know if this is true or not. I don't know if the 1868 Atlantics trade card was issued in 1868 or 1871. The one in REA last year had the address trimmed off so it is difficult to assign a date to it. Corey, you have one, what is the address on the back of yours?
At the end of the day, the first card discussion will likely end up at the same place as the rookie card discussion. Everyone has their own definition, most likely the definition that benefits them personally the most. Personally, as was true with the rookie cards, I don't care.

Jay,

My P&S Atlantics is currently on loan to the National Museum of American Jewish History in Philadelphia as part of a baseball exhibit that will be opening next month. As such, I do not have it in my possession to check. It is possible that due to the trimming of the mount the address might not be visible.

oldjudge · #17 02-11-2014, 12:54 AM

Corey--was someone on the team from the Tribe?

triwak · #18 02-10-2014, 01:39 PM

Guys, I purchased this Red Stockings "photo disc" in the 2011 REA auction (see link, below). It's made of thick paper/thin cardboard, surrounded by a metallic ring. A little larger than a Colgan's card. It looks like a pin, but there is really no evidence of any kind of pin attachment on the back. I've never seen another example, but it clearly was a manufactured item, and not homemade. Since we're kind of on the subject, I've always wondered if anyone knows any more about it? ~ Ken

http://robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2011/1186.html

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