What is scrap and what isn't?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

Keeping things simple wouldn't scrap be stuff never intended for the public?

What about proofs then?

[barrysloate]

I would define scrap as something the printer intended to discard, and not make available to the public via normal business channels. Scraps that enter our hobby were either pulled out of the trash, given as a gift to an employee (maybe one who had young kids), or in some cases sneaked out of the factory when nobody was looking.

Leon's Brown Old Mill/ Cy Young /Southern leaguer/ kitchen sink card would be a scrap because the printer was likely experimenting with different inks and plates, and then planning to throw out the sheet.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Leon

What about proofs then?

If the proof was intended for some other purpose and walked out of the factory in someone's lunchbox, perhaps you could make a case for scrap. Actually we call it what we want when we want. I was only offering up a simplistic answer. Barry elaborated on it a touch. Scrap, to me, was intended for the trash bin and rescued. Misprints are Quality Control misses. (In my humblest of opinions.)

[drcy]

Scraps were sheets where the printing didn't come out right, so they were thrown away (scrapped) and someone figuratively or literally retrieved them from the trash can and hand cut the cards. The worker may have brought the sheet home for his kids.

Most scraps are handcut and have bad or missing printing. A lot of the psychedelic misprints, cards missing colors or terribly overlapping colors are scraps-- tossed away due to the bad printing. They often have blank backs but can have printed backs.

Most proofs offered for sale are actually scraps.

Scraps really only have extra value if the printing is especially unusual and striking. If entire colors are strikingly missing, such a card printed in only black and yellow, or the color alignment is totally off to the point of causing vertigo, that can bring a premium. I assume blank backs bring a premium. Otherwise, the card is just printing that didn't meet standards and should be valued less than a factory finished card.

I wouldn't surprised if factory cut blank backs made it into cigarette packs. Blank backs have been pulled out of Topps packs. I pulled a blank back out of a 1979 Topps pack as a kid.

Identifying proofs of cards is tricky. Sometimes they are on different stock and have crosses and marks so can be identified as such, while other times they look just like blank back misprints. I've had proofs from 1989 Gurnsey Topps Archive auction that looked just like regular blank back cards. The fronts were normal with all the printing. The only way I knew for sure they were proofs was Topps said they were. Other proofs from the same auction were clearly proofs just looking at them, as they were on very different stock (smooth bright white instead of the normal rough grey/brown Topps stock), blank backed and the fronts contained as few as one color and had no text. One proof had just the yellow ink.

The most interesting trading card proof I have is on transparent mylar sheets. Each sheet has a different color ink and when you put sheets on top of each other you get the finished design. It's clearly not a scrap.

[Bocabirdman]

I just talked to a printer. He describes things as:

Scrap....Make-Readies for a run. (Leon's Masterpiece would indeed be Scrap)
Misprints....Lapses in Quality Control
Proof.... Test Print or Prints to achieve a perfect example. Failed Proofs would be Scrap in the days before computers.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

I just talked to a printer. He describes things as:

Scrap....Make-Readies for a run. (Leon's Masterpiece would indeed be Scrap)
Misprints....Lapses in Quality Control
Proof.... Test Print or Prints to achieve a perfect example. Failed Proofs would be Scrap in the days before computers.

I think this is a great summary. For clarity within our hobby, I would add:

Scrap: Not intended for the public
Misprints: Included in print runs intended for public distribution
Proof: Intended for internal use to determine feasability or design review.

[wonkaticket]

My company produces all sorts of items for distribution, for us it’s very simple. Anything that isn’t a fully finished product as intended by the licensor or our own internal approval for mass distribution is a scrap product.

Sure we can define certain stages of what that item may be internally but all are part of the full production process and were not intended for the public to see or own.

[Exhibitman]

The Coburn is most likely scrap because it is not to size for an issued card and is obviously hand-cut. I suppose it could have gone into a pack but I seriously doubt it. The Titus* looks to me an issued miscut.

* "Ill take Titties for $100 Alex"
"That's 'Titus' Mr. Connery"
"Not much with the ladies are you, Trebek?"
--with apologies to one of my favorite SNL sketches ever, celebrity Jeopardy with Sean Connery.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

My company produces all sorts of items for distribution, for us it’s very simple. Anything that isn’t a fully finished product as intended by the licensor or our own internal approval for mass distribution is a scrap product.

Sure we can define certain stages of what that item may be internally but all are part of the full production process and were not intended for the public to see or own.

Hang onto it 100 years from now some lunatics may view it as a collectible.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

I just talked to a printer. He describes things as:

Scrap....Make-Readies for a run. (Leon's Masterpiece would indeed be Scrap)
Misprints....Lapses in Quality Control
Proof.... Test Print or Prints to achieve a perfect example. Failed Proofs would be Scrap in the days before computers.

That's a good definition, one that can be understood easily and covers most situations.

Looking at it more technically, there are a lot of stages of proofs depending on the way the printer and customer work. The shop I was at did nearly no proofing. Probably a photographic mockup for customer approval, but not much more. Topps uses an amazingly wide array of proofs for different stages of the design and approval process.

In a way, make ready sheets are proofs. Just the final stage where the equipment gets adjusted as production begins. Some are nearly "good enough" to be released, some aren't even close.

And "scrap" can actually be finished product that ends up being discarded. We tossed something like 12,000 college course catalogs that were overordered by the college. No room at their office. We found lots of places to put the first 12k copies, stacked to the ceiling, on top of file cabinets, under desks, basically anywhere a box would fit. After a few months they said to trash the rest. No real problem since they'd already paid for them.

With T206 there are a few that would obviously be "scraps" but don't have any of the usual scrap faults. Like this Ewing. Obviously hand cut, but entirely finished except for cutting. My guess is that either it was leftover when the change to shipping 350's began, or that the sheet was partly damaged and someone brought it home.

Steve B

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by steve B

Like this Ewing. Obviously hand cut, but entirely finished except for cutting. My guess is that either it was leftover when the change to shipping 350's began, or that the sheet was partly damaged and someone brought it home.

Steve B

there won't be a correct definition, but I wouldn't say this is scrap. No way to tell if this was done at the factory or at home by someone's two year old sister.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by t206hound

there won't be a correct definition, but I wouldn't say this is scrap. No way to tell if this was done at the factory or at home by someone's two year old sister.

I'm almost positive those cuts aren't from the factory

It's a great example of a hard to define card. Nothing obviously wrong except the cut, but probably cut from a sheet or partial sheet because of the size of the borders. It could also simply be a normal card that was oversize and off center that someones 2yr old sister got at with scissors.

It was cheap enough back in the early 80's that I can't be too worried. At the time I bought it I think commons were around $3 and this one would have been a lot less, maybe 50 cents?

Steve B

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

I just talked to a printer. He describes things as:

Scrap....Make-Readies for a run. (Leon's Masterpiece would indeed be Scrap)
Misprints....Lapses in Quality Control
Proof.... Test Print or Prints to achieve a perfect example. Failed Proofs would be Scrap in the days before computers.

Very, very interesting--perhaps the ambiguity is why (I have been advised) PSA stopped grading proofs some time ago. +1 on the above.

May your collecting bring great joy to you, and tolerance from your spouse!

Larry