Bill Russell's Mt. Rushmore response

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

I guess we will just disagree. I was in Maryland also. You might wanna check career stats though.

I'm not taking anything away from Elvin although he had a marked tendency to disappear in the fourth quarter. I loved him and Unseld and the rest of those teams. But he does not belong in the conversation among the very few best players ever, James does even mid-career. Look at the prices of Elvin's rookie card, the hobby knows how to rate him.

[Peter_Spaeth]

ps Alcindor had a severely injured eye in that game. Lew destroyed him in the rematch.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

ps Alcindor had a severely injured eye in that game. Lew destroyed him in the rematch.

Alcindor was wearing a patch on his eye. That had to affect his depth perception. When UCLA and Houston met later in the NCAA's it was all Alcindor. I watched both games and remember them fairly well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry, you and I will take Alcindor/Jabbar and LeBron, Mike will take Hayes and David Robinson, and we'll go from there.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Barry, you and I will take Alcindor/Jabbar and LeBron, Mike will take Hayes and David Robinson, and we'll go from there.

I happen to think Elvin Hayes was a sensational player, but I do agree our guys would kick ass!

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Barry, you and I will take Alcindor/Jabbar and LeBron, Mike will take Hayes and David Robinson, and we'll go from there.

I had nothing to do with Robinson... If you are gonna stick me with who I brought into the conversation, it would be E and Wilt. I posted the sky hook block above..... And I wouldn't miss if I were your guys...they wouldn't sniff a rebound.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One could do worse than Wilt. I would take Kareem over him, but it's hard to go wrong either way if you're taking one to start your team.

[TUM301]

Bill Russell to start my team, greatest north american team player ever. After Red retired he said there`s only one person that can coach and keep Russell motivated , he wins the last 2 championships as player coach at age 37 I think. Since we brought up the 2 on 2 match ups I`d go with Magic and Hakeem against anyone.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm not taking anything away from Elvin although he had a marked tendency to disappear in the fourth quarter. I loved him and Unseld and the rest of those teams. But he does not belong in the conversation among the very few best players ever, James does even mid-career. Look at the prices of Elvin's rookie card, the hobby knows how to rate him.

Truly, my statement was less pro-Hayes and more anti-James. James rebounds horribly for a man of his size and ability. He can score and he can jump. That means he can create separation and get to the ball . He should be doing a Double double-double () 20 pts. and 20 rebounds every night. I live down here in Florida. I see him do the fourth quarter fade too often.

If you watch, and I mean REALLY watch him, game-after game, he is brilliant in spurts but seldom brilliant for an entire game. Granted, the Heat do not NEED him to be brilliant for 40 minutes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

7.7 boards per game since coming to Miami, that seems decent, granted it is not the best phase of his game.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

7.7 boards per game since coming to Miami, that seems decent, granted it is not the best phase of his game.

I was curious so I ran some of his numbers.

He is 3rd in the League in Points/Game
He is 9th in Assists/Game
He is tied for 22nd in Steals
He is 38th in Rebounding
He is 3rd in Turn Overs
He blocks one shot every three games.
He grabs one Offensive Rebound a game

Really I was surprised to see how one dimensional he is. He scores first and passes a bit when he is double-teamed. Aside from that he is pedestrian.

[Peter_Spaeth]

2003-04 NBA All-Rookie (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2012-13 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (1st)

If that's pedestrian, I'll take it.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

2003-04 NBA All-Rookie (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2012-13 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (1st)

If that's pedestrian, I'll take it.

Impressive as those honors are, we both know that they don't get him on Mt. Rushmore. I don't have the gumption to get the numbers but there are dozens of similarly impressive careers that outshine James. In addition, I listed statistics. Does two top tens warrant consideration for the greatest of all time? The honors you cite are voted on, in a lot of cases being awarded on past reputations. Do you think Brooks Robinson deserved the Gold Gloves numbers 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16 when he was in his mid to late thirties? The statistics say no, but he was Brooksie.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

Impressive as those honors are, we both know that they don't get him on Mt. Rushmore. I don't have the gumption to get the numbers but there are dozens of similarly impressive careers that outshine James. In addition, I listed statistics. Does two top tens warrant consideration for the greatest of all time? The honors you cite are voted on, in a lot of cases being awarded on past reputations. Do you think Brooks Robinson deserved the Gold Gloves numbers 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16 when he was in his mid to late thirties? The statistics say no, but he was Brooksie.

So now the argument is that he didn't deserve all those honors? At age 29 I somehow don't think they are based on past reputation.