Spalding, Reach and other cut outs sold on our BST

bn2cardz · #1 02-28-2014, 09:36 AM

I would like to hear from any of the 7 people that voted the straight out "yes" without voting for the yes with caveat. Were these just quick votes without reading all the options? Or are there actually people on here that believe it is OK to sell these without full disclosure of what they actually are?

Rich Klein · #2 02-28-2014, 09:48 AM

BUT, if the item is legitimate, the seller has a right to do whatever he or she wants to do. I know one dealer (who has passed on) who did nothing but cutting out things from magazines/papers. I know other people do this as well.

We can choose to buy or not buy these, but it is the seller's right. And if you are so upset about this, pay more then they do on EBay and buy the items yourself. If you complain and don't bid to own these, then you really have no say.

And on a modern example -- how about the 1954-55 Sports Illustrated Cards im the 1st 2 issues and then in an 155 issue. Now these are probably more expensive when still in a full magazine;but, if you have a damaged magazine, then taking out these cards are fine. Do you have to disclose these are cutout -- well most collectors know,... My point is no one complains about those items. I think the biggest issue is the TPG but as long as legit and described properly, it *is* a legt collectible.

Someone posted a while back about what TPG's would not grade, yet here is another borderline case.

Rich

Leon · #3 02-28-2014, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

BUT, if the item is legitimate, the seller has a right to do whatever he or she wants to do. I.......

Rich

Not really....This is not a democracy. Jury is still out....

Exhibitman · #4 02-28-2014, 10:28 AM

Who is on the jury?

Leon · #5 02-28-2014, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Who is on the jury?

me

and as you know Adam, 99% of the time I fall into your line of thinking. All that rhetoric being regurgitated, I can't imagine the board overwhelmingly not wanting, or wanting, something and us not doing what the vast majority would want. So far it looks like they will be allowed in the correct section and with full disclosure.

ElCabron · #6 02-28-2014, 10:48 AM

I am 100% against the cutting out and chopping up of vintage pieces. Having said that, I don't see why there should be any issue with them being sold on the BST, providing they are described accurately. VERY accurately. Where it gets sketchy is when pieces are chopped up and then those pieces are slabbed and sold as something being presented just like a card, even if they are not outright described as a "card." That seems very misleading to me and a novice collector could easily get burned.

-Ryan

barrysloate · #7 02-28-2014, 10:58 AM

The same way a show promoter is allowed to tell a dealer that only vintage material can be displayed and not shiny stuff, or to say no beanie babies are allowed at the show, Leon is free to prohibit these cutouts from the BST. It has nothing to do with ethics or anyone's right to cut them up, it's how he wants the board to look. It's his board, so he decides. He is simply taking input to help come up with a decision.

Runscott · #8 02-28-2014, 10:59 AM

The discussion has been great - you couldn't pick a more appropriate group of collectors to discuss such an issue, unless you were able to get Libertyforall and a couple of old book dealers to join in. I'm surprised that the majority of our group supports this practice, but I do realize that the goal of most is to get their item for their collection, and will do any rationalizing necessary.

My suspicion is that now that this practice is 'Net 54'-approved, we'll see more people purchasing these books with the idea of cutting out pictures for their collections, or for re-sell.

novakjr · #9 02-28-2014, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

The discussion has been great - you couldn't pick a more appropriate group of collectors to discuss such an issue, unless you were able to get Libertyforall and a couple of old book dealers to join in. I'm surprised that the majority of our group supports this practice, but I do realize that the goal of most is to get their item for their collection, and will do any rationalizing necessary.

My suspicion is that now that this practice is 'Net 54'-approved, we'll see more people purchasing these books with the idea of cutting out pictures for their collections, or for re-sell.

I hope we aren't assisting the support of this practice, but sadly, I agree, that I think we are.. Having said that, I do own a few of these. One is an older woodcut, that I greatly trust was from a "damaged" book. Mostly, I purchased a handful for framing and display, which I'm fairly confident were taken from good books.. Although, I will admit there are a few that I cherish as collectibles(although, I probably shouldn't). The 1893 Cleveland team, with Cy and others, plus a few that are probably the only career contemporary items that my collection will ever see of Sockalexis, Moonlight Graham, and a few negro leaguers.. Another small handful act as placeholders in(or supplemental to) my HOF rookie(pre-rookie) collection(only if they pre-date anything else released of a player).

But like I said, I'm fairly confident that all but 2 or 3 of the dozen or so that I own came from good books, which does make me sad, and perhaps a bit angry.. And it is fairly easy to tell if they came from badly damaged books or not..

Runscott · #10 02-28-2014, 11:49 AM

David, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Based on these discussions, I actually feel that maybe I'm overemphasizing the historical value of these books. As Adam says, they are not priceless illuminated books, and on the other end of the spectrum they aren't modern magazines. They are somewhere in-between. Perhaps the best you can do, if it's important to you, is to build your own library of original books. They haven't gone up in price over the last ten years, despite the cut-outs, so it's possible that there are so many of them available that we have an endless supply

Rich Klein · #11 02-28-2014, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Not really....This is not a democracy. Jury is still out....

I was actually referring more to outside the BST realm. However, once you allow them with a caveat, everyone is going to say they were cutout from old falling apart publications. Thus, the realist in me says, if you allow them with the caveat, then just allow them period.

View Poll Results: Should publication cut outs be allowed to be sold on the BST?
Yes	8	3.56%
No	76	33.78%
Yes, but with stated caveat they are cut outs	113	50.22%
I don't care.	28	12.44%
Voters: 225. You may not vote on this poll

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