Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The ethics of this has been covered well by you guys, but Chris' point above really concerns me - if the TPGs either can't detect chemical alteration today, or can only do so if alerted to it beforehand (not sure if this is true), but someday they COULD be able to detect it, then some collectors today could later find themselves screwed, especially if they are purchasing '52 Mantles, T206 Planks, etc., that show no evidence today of Dick's tampering.

The word "screwed" infers that it would lower the value of the card. Nobody knows if it would or not. Did Kendrick's T206 Wagner lose value now that we all know it's trimmed? Who knows?

[rainier2004]

My problem is with the disclosure, pretty rare to see a card advertised and "cleaned".

"Character is built when no one is looking"

Just b/c its undetectable does not make it ethical. When I buy my cards I expect them to be unrestored and unaltered, I believe that 99.9% of my cards follow these rules. It is impossible to know the provenance to all your cards, that still doesn't make it ok for someone to restore it and sell it w/o disclosure. I am very surprised how many are ok with this...

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

My problem is with the disclosure, pretty rare to see a card advertised and "cleaned".



"Character is built when no one is looking"



Just b/c its undetectable does not make it ethical. When I buy my cards I expect them to be unrestored and unaltered, I believe that 99.9% of my cards follow these rules. It is impossible to know the provenance to all your cards, that still doesn't make it ok for someone to restore it and sell it w/o disclosure. I am very surprised how many are ok with this...

And just because it's detectable doesn't make it unethical. So it seems like a good deal of people are on both sides of the fence...so who actually makes the call on ethics here?

Ok, so some people believe that by cleaning a card, you take it out of it's natural state. How about all of the chemicals that every t-card absorbed when they were around cigarette smoke or maybe inside the package before opened? I mean, which chemicals are we going to allow? I think we have to put the ethics debate on hold until we actually know what we are talking about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

And just because it's detectable doesn't make it unethical. So it seems like a good deal of people are on both sides of the fence...so who actually makes the call on ethics here?

I was hoping Wonka's post would get that question discussed, but it didn't, so I'll discuss it with myself. Unfortunately, it seems to be PSA's call. They said they wouldn't put a number on a trimmed card, so the Gretzky Wagner eventually landed people in prison. If they were to say they wouldn't slab cards treated with chemicals, then something similar could occur. If PSA says they will assign numeric grades to such 'chemical' cards, and won't indicate the chemical component, then deception (and thus, ethics) become a moot point, at least legally.

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Ok, so some people believe that by cleaning a card, you take it out of it's natural state. How about all of the chemicals that every t-card absorbed when they were around cigarette smoke or maybe inside the package before opened? I mean, which chemicals are we going to allow? I think we have to put the ethics debate on hold until we actually know what we are talking about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My read is that the beef is about making money through deception - the final state of the card is irrelevant.

I'm on the fence primarily because I don't collect graded cards, so if I could not tell that the card had been changed, I wouldn't care; however, I also realize that some people do care, and they have every right to want their cards to not be touched by chemicals.

Also, some cards end up in slabs, and I have to be aware of the implications of that for chemicalized cards.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I was hoping Wonka's post would get that question discussed, but it didn't, so I'll discuss it with myself. Unfortunately, it seems to be PSA's call. They said they wouldn't put a number on a trimmed card, so the Gretzky Wagner eventually landed people in prison. If they were to say they wouldn't slab cards treated with chemicals, then something similar could occur. If PSA says they will assign numeric grades to such 'chemical' cards, and won't indicate the chemical component, then deception (and thus, ethics) become a moot point, at least legally.



My read is that the beef is about making money through deception - the final state of the card is irrelevant.

I'm on the fence primarily because I don't collect graded cards, so if I could not tell that the card had been changed, I wouldn't care; however, I also realize that some people do care, and they have every right to want their cards to not be touched by chemicals.

Also, some cards end up in slabs, and I have to be aware of the implications of that for chemicalized cards.

In the US, it probably should be defined by the AIC, they're the standard the LOC teaches. While the practices part isn't entirely practical outside of an archive or museum, it's a good set of guidelines.
http://www.conservation-us.org/about...s#.UzIPbDeYaUk

While I've had a few cards graded, I was against it initially. (Back when it was new)
I don't believe the grade should include things like centering. Every item is made in some way, and a technical grade should indicate the state of preservation only
My other opposition was that keeping something that degrades and releases an acid that hastens the degradation inside an enclosed container can't be good for it in the long term.
Some prewar cards aren't prone to that, and will be fine. Others, and the immediate postwar cards are and may suffer in the long term.

At some point for some objects we as a hobby will have to decide between loss and preservation. Some 20's strip cards have already become brittle enough to be fragile. Even deacidification may not save them at this point. I'd expect to see this happen to late 40's cards in another 20 years. It's already possible to see the beginnings of it on some. Poor storage is the primary problem, but eventually all things printed cardstock with a high wood pulp content will degrade.

I'm occasionally amazed that the same group that sees trimming up the borders of a handcut card to make it look better as ok can be strictly against removing scrapbook residue or dirt.

Alteration purely for profit is wrong, but somewhere along the line preservation and profit take the same path.

Steve Birmingham

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by steve B

Alteration purely for profit is wrong, but somewhere along the line preservation and profit take the same path.Steve Birmingham

For the most part Jay was correct we are not talking about saving for future generations one of a kind historical documents or works of art, that if actions are not taken will be lost to the ages. There are plenty of 1952 Mantles around as well as most other issues Dick is working on.

Lets also be honest if the above is a toll road with innocent preservation/disclosure being the south bound lane and profit/deception being the north bound lane....which do you think has more traffic jams in our hobby?

Cheers,

John

[HRBAKER]

I'd say they had to install an EZ Pass lane headed northbound John.

[frankbmd]

..........

Lets also be honest if the above is a toll road with innocent preservation/disclosure being the south bound lane and profit/deception being the north bound lane....which do you think has more traffic jams in our hobby?

Cheers,

John

John, so that was Leon selling cards in the median strip the other day.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Lets also be honest if the above is a toll road with innocent preservation/disclosure being the south bound lane and profit/deception being the north bound lane....which do you think has more traffic jams in our hobby?

Cheers,

John

The problem is that the toll booth is in the wrong lane.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

For the most part Jay was correct we are not talking about saving for future generations one of a kind historical documents or works of art, that if actions are not taken will be lost to the ages. There are plenty of 1952 Mantles around as well as most other issues Dick is working on.

Lets also be honest if the above is a toll road with innocent preservation/disclosure being the south bound lane and profit/deception being the north bound lane....which do you think has more traffic jams in our hobby?

Cheers,

John

Obviously the northbound lane has been a parking lot for years. Sometimes a breakdown gets towed, making room for a new busload.

I usually take a very long view of things. It's very true there are plenty of more modern cards around now. That will probably remain true in my lifetime.(The 52 mantle is a doubleprint after all, plenty to go around)

I do think there's room to consider the very long term results of what we do today. That includes whether any cleaning done now will cause a larger problem later.
Places like the LOC don't just do the preservation work on unique and valuable documents and art. They deacidify in the neighborhood of a million books and documents a year Obviously not all of it is rare, valuable or even interesting.
http://www.loc.gov/preservation/scie...ss_deacid.html


I'm sure some of my feeling that properly done preservation is ok comes from learning some stuff about non-card items where it's more critical. (more below, under the line if you want to ignore it -Being concise isn't a skill I have.)
The word properly is critical here - Some of what's done may hide problems or create new problems- I'd have to know a lot more about exactly what Mr Towle does to figure out how to categorize it. And unfortunately it's a trade secret.
Removing surface filth is obviously something I agree with, I've done it myself. The trick is in having limits. I probably could have cleaned the card I showed better. But I had problems with going farther. What I did was near the limits of my skill, and near the limits of what I felt was proper.

I think removing tape is good if it can be done in a way that ends up neutrally- All adhesive gone and solvents neutralized.
Water stains usually come with some degree of cardboard damage. removing the stain probably just hides the problem. Fixing the damage would I think be going too far.
Scrapbook residue that can be removed easily should probably be removed.
Some of the glues are acidic, and taking the long view should be removed.

It's hard to know just where to draw the line sometimes.

And I'm sure I might feel differently if my collecting was in a different price bracket. The 59 common I tried to save would go to recycling or my kids these days.
I do think the TPGs need to change things- reverse the time factor, spend more time on detection of problems. If someone is spending more to have an expensive card looked at I think both the hobby and the submitter deserve a bit more time spent rather than simply bumping the 60 second look to the front of the line.

Steve Birmingham

------------------------------------------------
Old newspapers suffer terribly from the nature of the paper they're on, and films can suffer from both the film itself and the sort of emulsion holding the image.
As an example
Technicolor should remain looking good for several more lifetimes. But it stopped production in the US in 1974-5 and in Europe and the UK in 1980 and 78.

But most stuff that was needed inexpensively and quickly was done on Eastmancolor film introduced in 1952, and that stuff loses color easily.

Television was distributed on film in the 60's-70's, so the NFL game of the week was on film, ALL Eastman, all fading to nothing but red.
The world series highlight reels made by Coca-Cola are almost all Eastman color. And all faded. (I own the only Technicolor one I've ever seen, so there are a few out there.)
Poor storage can cause the plastic itself to break down and release acetic acid, which accelerates the breakdown.

Oddly home movie film was more likely to be Kodachrome than a commercial film. And Kodachrome is pretty much as good as Technicolor.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The word "screwed" infers that it would lower the value of the card. Nobody knows if it would or not. Did Kendrick's T206 Wagner lose value now that we all know it's trimmed? Who knows?

I'm making the assumption that if chemical alteration could be detected, that the TPG's would not slab the card. So in my hypothetical situation, someone buys a chemically-altered PSA-slabbed '52 Mantle today, then it later gets cracked for SGC and turns out to be chemically-altered, and thus does not get a numeric grade. I think we could agree that the card's value would go down.

I'm not giving a raw '52 Mantle example, but that could end up even worse if the original buyer bought it as unaltered and the TPG later detected chemical alteration.

[chernieto]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351030629038

Nice lot --with pencil markings on back. The Pencil markings altered the cards- cleaning the cards would help restore them closer to the original state which would be more appealing to my eye anyway.
Paul C.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by chernieto

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351030629038

Nice lot --with pencil markings on back. The Pencil markings altered the cards- cleaning the cards would help restore them closer to the original state which would be more appealing to my eye anyway.
Paul C.

I love the way 1/6th of a set is considered a partial set...better than a near set I suppose!!!! Not likely heavy pencil can be removed and be undetectable!

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I love the way 1/6th of a set is considered a partial set...better than a near set I suppose!!!! Not likely heavy pencil can be removed and be undetectable!

very true!

[atx840]

If at The National, the SGC booth had a free, private scanner setup where you wave your raw or graded cards under and it would light up green for original, red for altered due to chemical cleaning.

Would you check your cards, would you be Ok if some of your best came back red that you thought were green, and would you then disclose this information when its time to sell?

[smokelessjoe]

There could already be something on your card (not visible to the eye) that was put there 100 years ago! No telling what kind of chemicals already exist on our cards without any intent of cleaning etc...

[joeadcock]

Chris

As the chief said in the Last of the Mohicans:"...what are we to do". You are right. A card changed, altered, whatever, in our possession(but unknown to us when we acquired it), would likely lead to "no way, not this card", or anger, or depressed, etc.

We'll never know what cards we have that have been changed, altered, etc.

Originally Posted by atx840

If at The National, the SGC booth had a free, private scanner setup where you wave your raw or graded cards under and it would light up green for original, red for altered due to chemical cleaning.

Would you check your cards, would you be Ok if some of your best came back red that you thought were green, and would you then disclose this information when its time to sell?

[CardboardCollector]

Interesting thought. What would the threshold be to indicate the use of chemicals?

I need to put my cards away next time my cleaning lady shows up. You never know what she is spraying around.

Originally Posted by atx840

If at The National, the SGC booth had a free, private scanner setup where you wave your raw or graded cards under and it would light up green for original, red for altered due to chemical cleaning.

Would you check your cards, would you be Ok if some of your best came back red that you thought were green, and would you then disclose this information when its time to sell?