PSA photo authentication - a suggestion

prewarsports · #1 03-27-2014, 12:49 AM

I will chime in a few thoughts.

First, I always tell people that photographs are MUCH closer to game used memorabilia than cards or anything like that. Each photo is a living breathing piece of art and it should be treated that way. Take a game used bat for example. They were all issued at the same size and weight, but no two are exactly alike. After being used in games some are broken, some are cracked, some were taped and some were barely used. Its the SAME THING with a press photograph and the use is what we like. Some were trimmed, some were traced for engraving, some were spliced, some were heavily painted and turned more into artwork and some were just marked with a few potential sizes for stories. So when a photo is cleaned it is no different than when a bat is wiped off with warm water. Should that be disclosed? I don't think it really needs to be if all you did is wipe of a spot of dirt or dust from being in an attic for 100 years. But I think many dealers in game used bats would explain in their rules (as we do) that they sometimes clean their bats with warm water. If in the process of cleaning the bat though, some chemicals are used which leave a mark or any restoration of the material itself takes place at all then yes, it needs to be disclosed. These things might have happened in the past however and in those situations it is often impossible to tell.

We grade our photos, and as far as I know we are the only ones who do it. We don't take editorial markings (or their removal) or cropping of the image into account in the grade unless it affects the condition of the photograph itself. We do however mention in our descriptions if there are editorial markings that were removed if we can detect it (or tracing that is still present) or if an item has a border trimmed off etc. We do it on a different scale than baseball cards and it is NOT to create a market for photo grading. We do it simply because you can not tell everything from a scan. We have images that might look perfect to the naked eye but when examined up close there might be a few creases that are visible only when tilted to the light and that need to be disclosed. It is simply another way to convey what the buyer is getting when a scan and description combined isn't even enough. I think it works and the evidence I have for this is that in (5) Auctions we have run (through RMY) we have not had one single complaint about condition and have received hundreds of e mails about customers finding the photos to be better in person and that is our goal. Extra information is never a bad thing.

SO, to sum up I feel that photo grading works. Not in the same way that cards or autographs work, but as a way of conveying as much information as possible to the potential buyer as many flaws can not be seen from a scan alone and a description sometimes does not accurately convey the magnitude of a flaw no matter how long you describe it.

Rhys Yeakley

drcy · #2 03-27-2014, 01:54 AM

Condition does matter with photographs, but not to the finite anal-retentive degree as it does in the baseball card. An ExMt 1910 photo may sell the name as a Nrmt-Mt example, because photography collectors aren't so concerned with microscopic wrinkles or barely seen nicks in the corner. It's baseball card collectors who worry about that.

The reason behind this is because there may be 20,000 1993 SP Derek Jeters or 1968 Topps Nolan Ryans and the only thing that separates them is the condition or very minor print variations. However, with a particular 1925 Babe Ruth photo, there may be only five or even one in existence. Photography collectors are concerned about condition and presentation, but don't worry about silly minor stuff like a minor ding to the corner or a little wrinkle on the edge. If you see a wonderful 1908 Ty Cobb photo, it may be the last time you see it for sale. You don't fret over a corner bump and minor wrinkles. A minor pencil mark on the back of a beautiful Abe Lincoln cabinet card doesn't prevent a photography collector from buying it.

This also explains why it's baseball collectors and sellers who slice a half a millimeter off the left side to try and get a better grade. A serious photograph collector wouldn't do that because a) a very slightly rough left edge doesn't matter aesthetically and b) sharpening the edge won't raise the resale vale because other photograph collectors won't care either.

So condition does matter with photographs and they can be assigned a grade Poor to Mint. But the Gem Mint 10, Nrmt-Mt 8.5, Beckett Mint 9.5 corners and 8.5 gloss, Set Registry average grade 9.32145612115666 nonsense is the baseball card hobby not the photography hobby.

You have to understand one thing: As far as condition goes, photography collectors are sane and graded baseball card collectors are insane. PSA label number collectors need an intervention and some form of psychiatric medication. Because sane people don't spend hours of their free time with a microscope searching pieces of cardboard for wrinkles and edge dings invisible to the naked eye.

drcy · #3 03-27-2014, 02:07 AM

Duly note I both say what I mean and use tongue in cheek rhetoric and analogies. I've always been proficient and mixing and matching serious thoughts with offbeat humor. It's just some people don't know where I'm being serious and where I'm joking, in particular since I usually avoid using emoticons.

For example, I don't think set registry members are literally vampires. That was a tongue in cheek part.

The need for some collectors to be put on psychiatric medicine? Well, we all know that's true. Let's call that one a joke with an element of truth.

That baseball card rules are for baseball cards and don't always apply to other forms of memorabilia and art? That's 100% serious.

Runscott · #4 03-27-2014, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

Condition does matter with photographs, but not to the finite anal-retentive degree as it does in the baseball card.

I'm very glad that the above is the case. One of my concerns 10+ years ago, when we saw clearly-trimmed photos entering the market, and then appearing in plastic slabs, was that the modern trimming would be encouraged by card-like collector preferences.

This has continued to some extent (check some of the photos that supposedly came straight from archives, but have razor-sharp corners and vintage writing clearly half-gone from their backs, while most of the less valuable photos retain their vintage rough edges) but for the most part we have been lucky in that respect. Thanks, collectors, for not encouraging that practice. Also, I'm not pointing fingers with my prior parenthesized comment - I think the trimming is to make the photos more aesthetically-pleasing, which perhaps it does, and it's obvious, so I doubt there's any intended deception. Still...

To all photo sellers: leave the rough edges - we need them for matting.

Runscott · #5 03-27-2014, 11:06 AM

Lance, I wasn't asking for the level of detail from PSA/DNA that you described, but those were certainly all things that were going through my mind as possibilities. Also, I do realize that it isn't economically feasible, just as it isn't economically feasible to put the required effort into authenticating most autographs. I think I stated that in a previous post.

But your post was very interesting - thanks. Also, thanks for clarifying the change in slabbed-photo % - I wasn't going to argue with about it, as I don't collect slabbed photos.

It's good to get the philosophical photo guys discussing this sort of stuff - looking forward to Ben getting back from his wanderings.

drcy · #6 03-27-2014, 12:02 PM

As I've said for years, a collector shouldn't even want a Pre-War news photo that is in Gem Mint condition, because that means it is probably either a modern reprint or has been altered (usually trimmed). 99.9 percent of authentic Pre-War news photos naturally have some form of wear and tear. They are paper thin items that were well handled over the years, editors and photographers commonly wrote notes on and rubber stamped the backs, and almost all have at least slightly rough edges here and there, a wrinkle or two, a dinged corner. This explains why collectors shouldn't be unduly concerned with condition.

As with baseball cards, tobacco signs, movie lobby cards et al, a heavy crease or unsightly wrinkling through the image, stains, missing corners, water damage, missing paper or spots in the image and other such thing that effect eye appeal do effect financial value. Condition is part of the value of photos. However, a slightly dinged corner, or small surface wrinkle on the white border will have little to no effect on value. It's about general naked eye appearance, especially of the images, and, as said, antique photos, especially news photos, are expected to have at least a some wear and aging.

doug.goodman · #7 03-29-2014, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

You have to understand one thing ... graded baseball card collectors are insane.

Amen, brother!

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
PSA Photo Authentication Fees	mybestbretts	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	18	03-22-2014 01:57 PM
PSA photo Authentication	CrazyDiamond	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	9	02-26-2014 02:36 PM
Photo slabbing/authentication	Exhibitman	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	15	10-28-2013 04:12 PM
Input on Photo Authentication Course	drc	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	7	08-19-2009 08:54 PM
photo 'authentication' service	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	6	07-29-2004 07:55 PM