Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

bobbyw8469 · #1 03-28-2014, 04:13 PM

Addition by subtraction. He isn't adding anything. He is taking away stuff that shouldn't be there in the first place. If someone from the 30's put rubber cement on the back of a card to post it in an album, I don't see nothing wrong with removal of the glue. He isn't filling holes, coloring borders,etc. He is removing glues and stains that shouldn't be on the card in the first place. I am sure I am in the minority here.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 03-28-2014, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Addition by subtraction. He isn't adding anything. He is taking away stuff that shouldn't be there in the first place. If someone from the 30's put rubber cement on the back of a card to post it in an album, I don't see nothing wrong with removal of the glue. He isn't filling holes, coloring borders,etc. He is removing glues and stains that shouldn't be on the card in the first place. I am sure I am in the minority here.

So will you disclose which cards of yours have been worked on by him?

ullmandds · #3 03-28-2014, 04:41 PM

i don't think this debate will ever be settled...this thread may even de-throne the monster # thread...what a sad day in mud-ville that'd be!

frankbmd · #4 03-28-2014, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i don't think this debate will ever be settled...this thread may even de-throne the monster # thread...what a sad day in mud-ville that'd be!

Not a chance!!!

RGold · #5 03-28-2014, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Not a chance!!!

Hey Frank, don't forget to fill out your bracket.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 03-28-2014, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGold

Hey Frank, don't forget to fill out your bracket.

He would still finish last.

frankbmd · #7 03-28-2014, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGold

Hey Frank, don't forget to fill out your bracket.

I'm almost finished, Ron. When is the deadline?

RGold · #8 03-28-2014, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I'm almost finished, Ron. When is the deadline?

Duke looks pretty solid.

vintagetoppsguy · #9 03-28-2014, 05:51 PM

Let's say you're renting a house. You spill a bottle of wine on the carpet. You pay a professional carpet cleaning service to clean it because you don't want to loose your $2K deposit. The carpet cleaning service removes the stain and makes the rest of the carpet look like new. No one could ever tell a bottle of wine had been spilt. When it comes time to vacate the house, do you tell your landlord? For what? Does he even care if it's something he can't see? I keep going back to the same old point. If there is no evidence, why does it matter?

If having a stain removed from a card lowered the value of a card, I could certainly understand disclosing it. That would be common sense. However I don't think that it does - especially if it's graded after the stain is removed. Last time I looked in the SMR, there wasn't a pricing category for graded cards that have had a stained removed.

To answer a question John (Wonka) asked me earlier in this thread, yes, I do believe creases that are removed from a card should be disclosed. There's a huge difference and let me explain. It's been proven that creases can sometimes come back. The new owner of the card should know that a crease has been removed so he is aware of the possibility of the crease returning. However, there is no evidence that the stain removal process leaves any long term effects. None! Again, huge difference. And if at some point it can be proven that removing a stain can show long term effects, I would certainly change my stance. But, for now, that's how I feel.

I Only Smoke 4 the Cards · #10 03-28-2014, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Let's say you're renting a house. You spill a bottle of wine on the carpet. You pay a professional carpet cleaning service to clean it because you don't want to loose your $2K deposit. The carpet cleaning service removes the stain and makes the rest of the carpet look like new. No one could ever tell a bottle of wine had been spilt. When it comes time to vacate the house, do you tell your landlord? For what? Does he even care if it's something he can't see? I keep going back to the same old point. If there is no evidence, why does it matter?

If having a stain removed from a card lowered the value of a card, I could certainly understand disclosing it. That would be common sense. However I don't think that it does - especially if it's graded after the stain is removed. Last time I looked in the SMR, there wasn't a pricing category for graded cards that have had a stained removed.

To answer a question John (Wonka) asked me earlier in this thread, yes, I do believe creases that are removed from a card should be disclosed. There's a huge difference and let me explain. It's been proven that creases can sometimes come back. The new owner of the card should know that a crease has been removed so he is aware of the possibility of the crease returning. However, there is no evidence that the stain removal process leaves any long term effects. None! Again, huge difference. And if at some point it can be proven that removing a stain can show long term effects, I would certainly change my stance. But, for now, that's how I feel.

If I was trading or selling my carpet as a collectible I would disclose.

Runscott · #11 03-28-2014, 06:14 PM

Ryan, as you can see from posts subsequent to yours, common sense is never going to prevail in this hobby.

vintagetoppsguy · #12 03-28-2014, 06:35 PM

One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

bobbyw8469 · #13 03-28-2014, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

+1 . . . . too many people living in glass houses trying to throw stones!

I Only Smoke 4 the Cards · #14 03-28-2014, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

The gist seems to be that people have their own ethics and would prefer that those be honored by disclosure. I haven't heard anyone say you can't soak or clean a card. Instead people are saying overwhelmingly that it should be disclosed upon sale.

freakhappy · #15 03-28-2014, 08:11 PM

This thread is getting comical. I mean, I get people's take from both sides, but why do people against soaking cards think it's so unethical? If the water or chemicals do not affect the card, why care? I don't agree with trimming, recoloring, rolling out wrinkles, etc,. but if what is being done is simply cleaning up the card with no side effects, what's the big deal?

And what's up with the common sense comments? Who made the rules about ethics around here anyway? I'm totally against a chemical/water that will alter a card in the long run, but until then we have no proof.

vintagetoppsguy · #16 03-28-2014, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

The gist seems to be that people have their own ethics and would prefer that those be honored by disclosure. I haven't heard anyone say you can't soak or clean a card. Instead people are saying overwhelmingly that it should be disclosed upon sale.

My statement you quoted wasn't referring to just disclosure. It's a combination of many things - soaking, cutting pictures out of old magazines, whatever. Some people try and make you feel stupid if you don't see things from their point of view.

As far as disclosure, there have been many, many threads over the years on soaking cards. Many, many board members have admitted to soaking. I am one of them. I've soaked several cards, some with good results and some with bad. And if many people on this board admit to soaking, just think of how many non-members are out there who soak as well. Here's the kicker, Alex. Go search eBay for "T206 soaked" or "T206 stain removed." Guess how many results you get? Zero. Now search again, but replace the word "T206" with the word "Topps." How many results now? Still zero. So, of the thousands and thousands of cards that have ever been soaked, is it that none of them just never get listed on eBay, or is it that people don't disclose it? I think you know the answer.

My opinion is why disclose that if no harm is ever going to come from it and it's never going to make any difference whatsoever? Again, that's just my opinion, everybody else is entitled to theirs as well. Every one of us has to do what we think is right.

Runscott · #17 03-28-2014, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

The gist seems to be that people have their own ethics and would prefer that those be honored by disclosure. I haven't heard anyone say you can't soak or clean a card. Instead people are saying overwhelmingly that it should be disclosed upon sale.

No, previous posts show that the attitude toward disclosure of soaking vs disclosure of chemical cleaning is overwhelmingly NOT the same.

Runscott · #18 03-28-2014, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

That's all true, but we like you anyway.

vintagetoppsguy · #19 03-28-2014, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's all true, but we like you anyway.

I like you too, Scott

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