Top Tier HOF'ers - M. Brown / Waddell / Joss

CMIZ5290 · #1 04-28-2014, 06:34 PM

This one surprises me a tad. I think all 3 of these guys are first tier HOFers.. Waddell and Joss had tragic, short lives, but there stats are incredible..

AddieJoss · #2 04-28-2014, 07:34 PM

Joss is one of only 2 pitchers ever with a WHIP under 1.00 or an ERA under 2.00 and he did both for his career. His career was cut short or his numbers would have been either better, but dominating pitcher with sick stats.

Bored5000 · #3 04-28-2014, 10:09 PM

I am shocked that there has been as much support as there has been for any of three to be "top tier" Hall of Famers. IMO, it is a pretty easy vote that none of the three are "top tier." Brown, Waddell and Joss are all ranked middle of the pack to bottom half of nearly all HoF metrics. Waddell and Joss especially may have had tragic, shortened careers, but you can only grade them on what they actually did during their careers.

Waddell especially may have brilliant during his time, but it is telling IMO that none of the three received much support during that frst election period. "Top-tier" HoFers attract more than 15 pecent of the vote or three percent of the vote.

IMO, "top-tier" pre-war pitchers mean WaJo, Matty, Cy, GCA.

CW · #4 04-28-2014, 10:11 PM

I feel that these 3 would be middle tier, if that exists, but not top tier HOFers. Both Joss and Waddell had a few years of greatness, but their overall careers are too short. A top tier HOFer needs to have a fairly lengthy career to put up the numbers to be truly upper echelon, in my book.

Brown had a fairly long career, but he only had a 6 season stretch of 20+ wins, and this was during the deadball era when 20 was attainable for average pitchers.

All 3 were great players and I like many of their cards, but when you compare them to true top tier pitchers like Mathewson and Johnson, they just don't quite stack up. Joss and Waddell both had the potential, but "what if" doesn't get you top tier.

Kenny Cole · #5 04-28-2014, 10:17 PM

Phil,

What about Kid Nichols? IMO he has a much better claim to being a top tier pitcher than any of these three.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 04-28-2014, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Phil,

What about Kid Nichols? IMO he has a much better claim to being a top tier pitcher than any of these three.

Indeed he does, by the numbers. And to reiterate, Joss' raw numbers must be considered in the context of the dead ball era. Adjusted for era, they aren't that great. This is not a difficult concept. Nichols:

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (�)

Black Ink Pitching - 35 (46), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 309 (9), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 228 (16), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 69 (9), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (4th), 116.5 career WAR/75.1 7yr-peak WAR/95.8 JAWS

Peter_Spaeth · #7 04-28-2014, 10:38 PM

Tim Keefe also looks very good by the numbers.

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (�)

Black Ink Pitching - 58 (19), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 245 (23), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 271 (6), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 70 (7), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (12th), 86.7 career WAR/66.5 7yr-peak WAR/76.5 JAWS

View Poll Results: Top Tier HOF'ers - M. Brown / Waddell/ Joss
M. Brown Only	13	15.85%
Waddell Only	8	9.76%
Joss Only	11	13.41%
All 3 are Top Tier	20	24.39%
None of the 3 are Top Tier	30	36.59%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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