Just sad. No, not sad. Pathetic.

[japhi]

Hi David: I'm new but have been reading the board for around a year and have read all those threads. I just can get myself worked up about shilling. That said, I collect mostly hockey HOF rookies - which is why i don't post often-and mostly mid grade so shilling isn't as big an issue as it is in the baseball world.

My style is closer to MattyC's, I don't get too caught up in all the BS that comes with the hobby, it's a chance for me to get away from a very competitive/high paced career that comes with all the BS I can handle.

[Exhibitman]

What do you think of this business plan:

--Buy raw cards with minor flaws
--"Improve" raw cards
--Get them slabbed
--Consign to Probstein
--Shill auctions
--repeat

Did I miss any steps?

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What do you think of this business plan:

--Buy raw cards with minor flaws
--"Improve" raw cards
--Get them slabbed
--Consign to Probstein
--Shill auctions
--repeat

Did I miss any steps?

I think there's a "deny, deflect, or ignore" step in there somewhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What do you think of this business plan:

--Buy raw cards with minor flaws
--"Improve" raw cards
--Get them slabbed
--Consign to Probstein
--Shill auctions
--repeat

Did I miss any steps?

You missed the parallel step of buying centered slabbed cards with minor flaws and "improving" them.

[chernieto]

I have gotten good deals on some SGC/PSA graded pre war cards in his auctions & am happy there is someone who does the 99cent auction daily the way he does. I have noticed his consignment rates are perhaps the lowest in the indusry as well.
Shilling indeed sucks.....But I am still trying to deal with Hal Chase being banned for fixing games 100 years ago.
Paul C

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What do you think of this business plan:

--Buy raw cards with minor flaws
--"Improve" raw cards
--Get them slabbed
--Consign to Probstein
--Shill auctions
--repeat

Did I miss any steps?

While we are pointing out missed steps I'd like to highlight that that model doesn't produce any revenue without a buyer willing to pay way over historical values. As long as there are collectors that just have to have a certain card at any price there will be auctions that don't make much sense.

Anyone that has VCP access and is following certain cards know that for every shilled auction, there is some idiot pulling the trigger on a BIN at 30% over the previous sale. Which is why I don't lose any sleep over this - it's impossible for me to pay more than I'm comfortable with a card because I simply don't pay more than I am comfortable for card (or a car, dishwasher or deck reno).

[Harliduck]

[QUOTE=japhi;1270857]
Anyone that has VCP access and is following certain cards know that for every shilled auction, there is some idiot pulling the trigger on a BIN at 30% over the previous sale. QUOTE]

I will take exception to this comment. I have been that "idiot", as I am sure MANY here have been as well. When I knowingly overpay on a BIN, it's because I want/need that card, and at that time, that price is what that card is worth. And if I deem that card is worth that amount, well, than that is an accurate reading on value. ANY card is only worth what someone is willing to pay, not what any VCP or any "guide" is reporting. I often times see these guides oblivious to market realities...I see it in reverse all the time as well, our own B/S/T always has sought after cards under the "VCP" price, advertised as such, and not get a second look. Supply and demand dictate price, and often times the demand for an overpriced BIN is purchased because there is no supply to fuel the demand. Calling that purchaser an "idiot" is ignorant.

[MattyC]

[QUOTE=Harliduck;1270883]

Originally Posted by japhi

Anyone that has VCP access and is following certain cards know that for every shilled auction, there is some idiot pulling the trigger on a BIN at 30% over the previous sale. QUOTE]

I will take exception to this comment. I have been that "idiot", as I am sure MANY here have been as well. When I knowingly overpay on a BIN, it's because I want/need that card, and at that time, that price is what that card is worth. And if I deem that card is worth that amount, well, than that is an accurate reading on value. ANY card is only worth what someone is willing to pay, not what any VCP or any "guide" is reporting. I often times see these guides oblivious to market realities...I see it in reverse all the time as well, our own B/S/T always has sought after cards under the "VCP" price, advertised as such, and not get a second look. Supply and demand dictate price, and often times the demand for an overpriced BIN is purchased because there is no supply to fuel the demand. Calling that purchaser an "idiot" is ignorant.

I could not agree more, Hardi.

I personally think viewing card values exclusively through the prism of numerical grades and VCP grids is myopic. In my opinion, all cards in the same grade are not equal, and so it makes sense that they should not sell for equal values.

If one expects to pay "VCP average" for a card in GRADE X that makes all others in its grade (and some even above) look like dog meat, one is doomed to never have the pleasure of owning that card. The previous sale may have been of an overgraded card with heinous eye appeal.

As you said, a card is "worth" whatever one is willing to pay. There is no set value, ever. Each card has its own attributes, even if the sticker is identical to another sticker. Grades can be identical but cards are not. There are collectors who buy the card, and thus with no two specimens of the same card being identical, the prices-- to collectors with this view-- won't be identical either.

That said, if another collector believes all cards in GRADE X should sell for exactly the same number, to each his own and let every collector be happy.

[japhi]

[QUOTE=MattyC;1270887]

Originally Posted by Harliduck

I could not agree more, Hardi.

I personally think viewing card values exclusively through the prism of numerical grades and VCP grids is myopic. In my opinion, all cards in the same grade are not equal, and so it makes sense that they should not sell for equal values.

If one expects to pay "VCP average" for a card in GRADE X that makes all others in its grade (and some even above) look like dog meat, one is doomed to never have the pleasure of owning that card. The previous sale may have been of an overgraded card with heinous eye appeal.

As you said, a card is "worth" whatever one is willing to pay. There is no set value, ever. Each card has its own attributes, even if the sticker is identical to another sticker. Grades can be identical but cards are not. There are collectors who buy the card, and thus with no two specimens of the same card being identical, the prices-- to collectors with this view-- won't be identical either.

That said, if another collector believes all cards in GRADE X should sell for exactly the same number, to each his own and let every collector be happy.

Not to beat the VCP thing to death but all auctions that make it to VCP have images so it is possible to make an apples to apples comparison. I wasn't saying that all 5's are equal, rather VCP gives a buyer most of the info they need to make an informed decision. And with 5-7 years history on each card it's pretty easy to get a good understanding on what a card with good eye appeal in a certain grade should sell for. The fact that buyers go way over historical sales of similar condition cards (as opposed to grades) is not rational buying behavior. Which is okay.

[japhi]

[QUOTE=Harliduck;1270883]

Originally Posted by japhi

Anyone that has VCP access and is following certain cards know that for every shilled auction, there is some idiot pulling the trigger on a BIN at 30% over the previous sale. QUOTE]

I will take exception to this comment. I have been that "idiot", as I am sure MANY here have been as well. When I knowingly overpay on a BIN, it's because I want/need that card, and at that time, that price is what that card is worth. And if I deem that card is worth that amount, well, than that is an accurate reading on value. ANY card is only worth what someone is willing to pay, not what any VCP or any "guide" is reporting. I often times see these guides oblivious to market realities...I see it in reverse all the time as well, our own B/S/T always has sought after cards under the "VCP" price, advertised as such, and not get a second look. Supply and demand dictate price, and often times the demand for an overpriced BIN is purchased because there is no supply to fuel the demand. Calling that purchaser an "idiot" is ignorant.

Idiot was too strong and I would be labeling myself and idiot then as I've overpaid for a card I like.

My point was collectors pay inflated prices all the time, be it through shilling, BIN's, or just plain ignorance. We've seen lots of threads that show where a buyer pays more for a card from a consignor like PWCC or Probstein than a similar copy available at a lower BIN or an auction that closed a few days earlier that was half the price. As long as the collector is happy with his purchase I don't care if the auction was shilled, a stupid high BIN or an over graded card. Buyer beware and all that.

[atx840]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What do you think of this business plan:

--Buy raw cards with minor flaws
--"Improve" raw cards
--Get them slabbed
--Consign to Probstein
--Shill auctions
--repeat

Did I miss any steps?

--Profit

[nolemmings]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by japhi

Hi David: I'm new but have been reading the board for around a year and have read all those threads. I just can get myself worked up about shilling. That said, I collect mostly hockey HOF rookies - which is why i don't post often-and mostly mid grade so shilling isn't as big an issue as it is in the baseball world.

My style is closer to MattyC's, I don't get too caught up in all the BS that comes with the hobby, it's a chance for me to get away from a very competitive/high paced career that comes with all the BS I can handle.

I agree. The hobby is ideally a source of great enjoyment, an escape from the daily stressors. If one's hobby becomes a source of anger and annoyance, then I think there's a problem. In the end, I think cards are pure and pleasurable. Cards are never snide. They never get petty or envious. They never nag or break balls. They never get fat and out of shape. Human beings, on the other hand...

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by japhi

Hi David: I'm new but have been reading the board for around a year and have read all those threads. I just can get myself worked up about shilling. That said, I collect mostly hockey HOF rookies - which is why i don't post often-and mostly mid grade so shilling isn't as big an issue as it is in the baseball world.

My style is closer to MattyC's, I don't get too caught up in all the BS that comes with the hobby, it's a chance for me to get away from a very competitive/high paced career that comes with all the BS I can handle.

I hate to say it, Matt, but if you are always paying 100% of what you've budgeted for the few baseball cards you do buy, you are participating in the BS that comes with the hobby. You do so through no fault of your own, of course, but you are still part of the viscous cycle.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I hate to say it, Matt, but if you are always paying 100% of what you've budgeted for the few baseball cards you do buy, you are participating in the BS that comes with the hobby. You do so through no fault of your own, of course, but you are still part of the viscous cycle.

Bill that guilt by association is a BS argument. I don't shill and not even sure if I've been shilled.

My point was very simple; I pay what I'm comfortable - and usually less, I only snipe and I do quite a bit of research before sniping. If there is a card I'm chasing that sells for 400 bucks in a good looking PSA 6 than I set my snipe for 400 bucks, usually less. When I win I generally win below the comparable. I lose way more auctions than I win.

Obviously this way of buying won't work on cards that only come up once a year but I don't play in that sandbox.

If you have a strategy for paying less for cards on Ebay I'm all ears.

PS. good discussion, I mostly lurk as I can't add much value to threads, which may in fact be the case with this thread as well!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by japhi

Bill that guilt by association is a BS argument. I don't shill and not even sure if I've been shilled.

My point was very simple; I pay what I'm comfortable - and usually less, I only snipe and I do quite a bit of research before sniping. If there is a card I'm chasing that sells for 400 bucks in a good looking PSA 6 than I set my snipe for 400 bucks, usually less. When I win I generally win below the comparable. I lose way more auctions than I win.

Obviously this way of buying won't work on cards that only come up once a year but I don't play in that sandbox.

If you have a strategy for paying less for cards on Ebay I'm all ears.

PS. good discussion, I mostly lurk as I can't add much value to threads, which may in fact be the case with this thread as well!

Matt, firstly, I want to make sure that you know I wasn't accusing you of engaging in any nefarious activity. I didn't mean to insinuate that you shill yourself. If I choose my words poorly, I apologize. It's clear to me you're an honest guy, and I can not only appreciate the strategy you employ when bidding in an auction, I've used it myself in the past. It's good common sense. What I do question is the frequency with which we are either hitting that exact ceiling, or coming unnaturally close. I see this more in our niche than I do in the modern card portion of the hobby. This has simply been my observation, so I could be way off.

To borrow your earlier metaphor, I think if one plays in the pre-war and vintage sandbox long enough, eventually we're all going to be exposed to shill bidding, much like if we buy enough cards, graded or not, eventually we're going to get a card that has been slightly trimmed, or altered in some other manner. It's a product of being in a hobby with a lot of money trading hands, and unscrupulous people who want an ever increasing share.

I agree with your comment about this being a good discussion. Ultimately, we may not accomplish anything, but as Leon said, it's important to keep these things visible.

[japhi]

Thanks Bill, I didn't think you were accusing me of anything and wasn't offended at all.

[Jewish-collector]

Why is everyone so shocked ? This is a typical thread. A member comes on to complain about a situation on eBay and/or an auction house. He wants to collect vintage baseball cards (or collect memorabilia, autographs, whatever) to a get away from his highly competitive & stressful career. The problem is he ends up having as much stress, if not more than in the hobby/business than he has in his profession.

Just come to the National & let's have a couple cold ones over dinner.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

Why is everyone so shocked ? This is a typical thread. A member comes on to complain about a situation on eBay and/or an auction house. He wants to collect vintage baseball cards (or collect memorabilia, autographs, whatever) to a get away from his highly competitive & stressful career. The problem is he ends up having as much stress, if not more than in the hobby/business than he has in his profession.

Just come to the National & let's have a couple cold ones over dinner.

Cold soda's I presume?