Paypal Family and Friends Payment Problem Anyone else??

Sean1125 · #1 05-06-2014, 11:11 PM

F and f is at your own risk. To put it bluntly you are an IDIOT if you accept a gift that isn't blank (refund it and demand a blank payment or take it normal). You should never send a gift that is not blank....I refuse and refund if someone does not trust enough to send blank.

I need to put together a paypal guide for the forum. Its simple if you don't trust the person don't pay with a gift. I will try my best tomorrow.

whiteymet · #2 05-06-2014, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean1125

F and f is at your own risk. To put it bluntly you are an IDIOT if you accept a gift that isn't blank (refund it and demand a blank payment or take it normal). You should never send a gift that is not blank....I refuse and refund if someone does not trust enough to send blank.

I need to put together a paypal guide for the forum. Its simple if you don't trust the person don't pay with a gift. I will try my best tomorrow.

Looking forward to your "guide" and an explanation of what BLANK is.

There was not a matter of trust in this transaction. The problem only arose when the P.O. "lost" the package. BTW I was the RECIPIENT of the F&F payment, so I did not pay with a gift as you reference. But I guess that makes me an IDIOT to accept the payment that I requested.

UnVme7 · #3 05-06-2014, 11:40 PM

I don't have a problem with personal payments, but I think you have to be careful. If you have a lot of transactions this way, it triggers paypal and they will make it so you can never do that again. I think...

Sean1125 · #4 05-07-2014, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnVme7

I don't have a problem with personal payments, but I think you have to be careful. If you have a lot of transactions this way, it triggers paypal and they will make it so you can never do that again. I think...

I have nearly 100% F&F transactions, I simply do it correctly. Again, will expand in the near future and write a 'guide' that should protect both buyers and sellers assuming they follow it in full.

glchen · #5 05-07-2014, 12:42 AM

You can still use a credit card when using paypal and F&F. Therefore, the buyer can still initiate a credit card bank chargeback to paypal, where paypal will lose the funds. This is probably why Paypal accepted the case, and is tying up the seller's paypal funds.

MyGuyTy · #6 05-07-2014, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glchen

You can still use a credit card when using paypal and F&F. Therefore, the buyer can still initiate a credit card bank chargeback to paypal, where paypal will lose the funds. This is probably why Paypal accepted the case, and is tying up the seller's paypal funds.

This is most likely the case and most logical. Now if he paid via PP balance, I'm back to being at a loss as to why PP would take up this case in the first place.

Exhibitman · #7 05-07-2014, 02:21 PM

Paypal describes payments this way:

You can send money to make a purchase or to make a personal payment to someone.

If you�re making a purchase, there are 3 payment types:

Goods - Select this payment type when you�re paying for something that you didn�t buy on eBay.
Services - Use this payment type when your purchase is not a product but a service (for example, work performed for you by someone else).
eBay Items - Select this payment type to pay for things you buy on eBay.

When you make a purchase, the seller pays a small fee to receive your money.

If you�re sending a personal payment, payment types include:

Gift - Select this payment type when you�re sending money as a gift for a birthday or other special occasion.
Payment Owed - Use this payment type for things like reimbursing a friend for your share of a restaurant check, or repaying money that a family member loaned you.
Cash Advance - Select this payment type when the money you�re sending isn�t for the purchase of goods or services. (Remember that your card issuer may charge a fee for cash advances.)
Living Expense - Use this payment type when you need to pay regular, recurring expenses like rent or utilities.
Other - Select this payment type for anything that�s not covered by another payment type.

You can make a personal payment to anyone in the U.S. for free. Just make sure that you pay for the entire payment using your PayPal balance or bank account. A small fee applies to payments made with a debit or credit card. For more information, click Fees at the bottom of any page.

Using personal payments to get paid for goods is a violation of the Paypal user agreement:

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

You also agree to bear the financial risk of any chargebacks. The only exception is if you qualify for seller protection. To do so: "You must ship the item to the shipping address on the Transaction Details Page"; there is no shipping address for a personal payment, so asking the buyer to use gift never qualifies you for seller protection.

IMO, saving 3% on a deal is a silly trade-off for risking a scam. Even if you have no qualms at all about the business ethics of avoiding paying a fee for the service Paypal offers--and I do since I am a service provider and do not appreciate it when people beat me out of my fees--I personally do not want to accept the risk of a charge-back, so I make sure to use the right transaction form for all deals.

MyGuyTy · #8 05-06-2014, 11:45 PM

This is all still so bizarre that PayPal would even ENTERTAIN a complaint via F&F for a purchase of goods. They just got cheated out of $60 in fees because the buyer chose to skate around their system and send the money via F&F and now they're gonna take up the hassle of his complaint and have to deal with both of you getting upset and lodging complaints on what has transpired?? If I was PayPal I would have sent a response to both of you basically stating why trying to "cheat the system" via F&F to avoid fees for the sale of goods is prohibited and in essence an unprotected gamble on both of your parts.

Sean1125 · #9 05-07-2014, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Looking forward to your "guide" and an explanation of what BLANK is.

There was not a matter of trust in this transaction. The problem only arose when the P.O. "lost" the package. BTW I was the RECIPIENT of the F&F payment, so I did not pay with a gift as you reference. But I guess that makes me an IDIOT to accept the payment that I requested.

If you aren't comfortable with the seller refunding you should something happen (ie: trust the seller to do the right thing regardless of the circumstances) then don't pay a method that is supposed to 'unrefundable'. It's that simple. There is nothing more to it. F&F Should be considered handing someone cash assuming and hoping they will do the right thing - nothing more, nothing less.

I will banter more tomorrow.

Sean

whiteymet · #10 05-07-2014, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean1125

If you aren't comfortable with the seller refunding you should something happen (ie: trust the seller to do the right thing regardless of the circumstances) then don't pay a method that is supposed to 'unrefundable'. It's that simple. There is nothing more to it. F&F Should be considered handing someone cash assuming and hoping they will do the right thing - nothing more, nothing less.

I will banter more tomorrow.

Sean

Sean:

AGAIN. I am the SELLER. As I said in the above I am the RECIPIENT. The BUYER who paid ME through F&F has not received the package and has filed with paypal and has put a hold on my $$

I look forward to your banter

Sean1125 · #11 05-07-2014, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Sean:

AGAIN. I am the SELLER. As I said in the above I am the RECIPIENT. The BUYER who paid ME through F&F has not received the package and has filed with paypal and has put a hold on my $$

I look forward to your banter

Out the buyer... What Mr. Chen said is correct - the only real way to recall F&F is to initiate a credit card charge back. That is not a case that can ever be won. I recently lost one even though I did everything to paypals exact standards (shipped correctly, uploaded tracking correctly etc). If the buyer calls up their credit card company and tells them that they didn't make the transaction then the selling party is SOL.

Did theirs specifically say it was for goods or was the payment made completely blank (basic fields, nothing typed). I have a feeling if they were able to file a normal case then they may not have payed F&F - just regular and covered the fees on their end (this is possible). I would need to actually physically see the payment details on Paypal to help out much further.

glchen · #12 05-07-2014, 02:42 PM

I've unfortunately been involved in a number of charge back and ebay/paypal issues these days, but very luckily have managed to land right side up for them so far.

For the issue in this case, from my experience (not sure what happened in Sean's), you can still win your case as long as your item shows delivered to the customer w/ his signature. You will have 21 business days from the day the item was shipped for the package to be delivered (or at least attemped delivery). Hopefully if the Post Office doesn't screw up here, you'll be okay in the end.

whiteymet · #13 05-07-2014, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glchen

I've unfortunately been involved in a number of charge back and ebay/paypal issues these days, but very luckily have managed to land right side up for them so far.

For the issue in this case, from my experience (not sure what happened in Sean's), you can still win your case as long as your item shows delivered to the customer w/ his signature. You will have 21 business days from the day the item was shipped for the package to be delivered (or at least attemped delivery). Hopefully if the Post Office doesn't screw up here, you'll be okay in the end.

Gary:

What one of my original questions was is what happens if the P.O. does not deliver the package? I have all the tracking info I can supply to paypal, but if the package does not get there will paypal refund the buyer under protection plan even if paid via F&F?

whiteymet · #14 05-07-2014, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean1125

Out the buyer... What Mr. Chen said is correct - the only real way to recall F&F is to initiate a credit card charge back. That is not a case that can ever be won. I recently lost one even though I did everything to paypals exact standards (shipped correctly, uploaded tracking correctly etc). If the buyer calls up their credit card company and tells them that they didn't make the transaction then the selling party is SOL.

Did theirs specifically say it was for goods or was the payment made completely blank (basic fields, nothing typed). I have a feeling if they were able to file a normal case then they may not have payed F&F - just regular and covered the fees on their end (this is possible). I would need to actually physically see the payment details on Paypal to help out much further.

Sean:

The buyer did say what the payment was for in the message section. I do not know if he paid by CC or checking account or paypal balance. You said if you saw the payment details you could help. See below. I have redacted the buyers name my email and the description of the items sold and the transaction ID #.

Mobile Payment Received (Unique Transaction ID # )

Original Transaction
Date Type Status Details Gross Fee Net
Apr 25, 2014 Payment From Held ... $2,000.00 USD $0.00 USD $2,000.00 USD

Related Transaction
Date Type Status Details Gross Fee Net
May 5, 2014 The funds are not available while this transaction is being reviewed Placed We'll complete the refund as soon as your original payment is processed by the bank.
We'll complete the refund as soon as your original payment is processed by the bank. Details -$2,000.00 USD $0.00 USD -$2,000.00 USD
Total: $0.00 USD $0.00 USD $0.00 USD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sent by:
(The sender of this payment is Verified)
Payment sent to:

Total amount:
$2,000.00 USD
Fee amount:
$0.00 USD
Net amount:
$2,000.00 USD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:
Apr 25, 2014
Time:
16:18:31 PDT
Status:
Held

Sean1125 · #15 05-07-2014, 06:02 PM

If anyone ever receives a gift or F&F (whatever you want to call it) and the buyer notates what it is for simple refund the payment and let them know they should either leave the fields blank (just type in dollar amount and send) - or cover the fees and pay normally.

There is NOT supposed to be any protection for the buying party in F&F so members shouldn't send it if they don't completely trust the other party.

Being this buyer notated it, I would have refunded him completely and told him I can only accept regular and to tack on the 3% - there should never be any exceptions to this rule, this is why paypal disables accounts.

There's really nothing you can do other than claim you didn't know it was F&F and hope they receive the item.

If the buyer is a member here, please please out them.

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